Richard Graves (00:01.41)
Well, Dave, welcome along to the show. I'm delighted you can join me on this week's podcast.

David Emsley (00:05.575)
Well, thank you inviting me. Pleasure to be here.

Richard Graves (00:07.63)
Let's start at the very beginning because I often find it in these conversations that it's a journey as we go along the course of each episode. So for you, you're a physio, you're a consultant to Premier League football clubs, but you work in many other sporting spheres as well. So for our listeners benefit, us a little bit about your journey, where it started and where it's led to now.

David Emsley (00:32.241)
So yeah, so started obviously going through going through school and playing sport myself, repeated injury, time out, growing pains, time out, and getting really frustrated. I I just want to play foot I want to play sport. I wanted to play football, cricket, squash, tennis, you name it, I wanted to play it. So it gives you this passion for for movement, for for sports, for engagement, and I was getting frustrated as a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year old boy. and it gave me the the thought process of how

how how am I so interested in that I get or can I get more interested in this? How can I create a journey around my own experience? So got to the end of GCSEs and I did all right. I tried to play a lot of sport and not study so much. Yeah, that's life. and so on to A level and thought, yeah, that's it. I'm gonna focus on biology P. This is my area. and it's an area that I absolutely loved. And I found out that I love the body, how it moves, what happens

during sport, what happens during everyday life, and so my journey went from A levels to a sport science degree and then on to a masters in physiotherapy and then on to the journey, as you say, from there onwards. And I am forever learning. And every day I keep picking up new things and looking at it going, Wow, I wasn't expecting that. That's really cool. So also

Richard Graves (01:48.206)
And give us an idea of some of the sporting fields you've worked in.

David Emsley (01:52.761)
So as I first became a physio, I was working with the England Ladies Across team and they were touring to touring to America. that pitch side physio pitch side physio is a very different beast to rehab physio, which is where I'd look at myself now. I'd I'd look at myself now at movement and specialising in movement and recovery from from longer term injuries, rather than, well, someone's just hit you around the face with the club, what are we gonna do about that? when I trained up in Scotland I did a did a bit of work with the SFA and coaches, and then

most recently I do most work with golf, so working with golf by mechanics, but as I more consultant Premier League footballers rather than the clubs. So when someone is getting frustrated or has been out and they're it's been long for a long period of time, they just want a second pair of eyes. I'm happy. yeah, let's have a look, let's see what's going on. and it's by assessing things slightly differently, which it'll be great to talk about, you get to look at things in a slightly different way.

Richard Graves (02:47.694)
So there's a broad range of experience there during your career to date. You mentioned their body movements. Your speciality is body mechanics. So let's break it down from scratch. What are we talking about when we say body mechanics?

David Emsley (03:02.791)
that's a great question, Richard. So ever everyone moves in certain ways. We all have idiosyncrasies and we've learned things over a period of time. And if someone says, Look, can you show me the perfect body? You have to go find a two-year-old, or maybe even before that. so body mechanics being the way the body moves and the way bodies create movement to achieve function. So

When we're taught in sports science or physiotherapy, we're taught in a pain paradigm. So what happens is Richard, you ta you come to me and you say I've hurt my knee running, it is painful. So I look at said knee, right, how do I address this pain? What is causing the pain? how do I try and make that better? When you look at movement as a whole, you have to think about the biomechanics of the movement and the way that we are processing a movement to achieve what we're trying to achieve. So it's effectively a com a combination of biomechanics.

and movement patterning. So as a as a species we're very good at adapting all of the time to going, my knee hurts. So let's say Richard you're running and your knee hurts. If I change my gait pattern slightly I can continue to run. And then over a period of time you go, now my low back hurts. But if I change my gait pattern again I can continue to run, I can negate this pain. And that's where you look at how you're actually doing it versus the biomechanics of what is happening.

and how the body is moving when you are doing it.

Richard Graves (04:27.224)
So just using that example there, because that's something that before we recorded, we had a conversation. I said that I did a bit of running and recently I haven't been experiencing a bit of knee pain. So what is the significance of understanding the way the body's moving in this instance as opposed to simply identifying the issue?

David Emsley (04:46.625)
Cool. So pain happens for a reason. So that pain in within the body is the body's perception of threat. So f when you are when you are running, your your body went, something is happening around that knee that I am worried about. And if I continue to do that, I'm gonna end up in quite a bad place. So it you get the pain signals to the brain and your brain goes, okay, I've got two choices here. I could stop or I can change what I'm doing.

So what the body tends to do, well so hopefully you stop and you go, cool, I just need to rest this and let it settle down. But hopefully it you'll also change what you're doing. But the way the body changes and adapts is the reason why you see people who are getting either repeated injury or you're gonna see people who are getting one injury followed by another, followed by another, followed by another. So with your knee pain running, the importance of knowing why it happened is the fact that if you rested it for three weeks and then went back to running and it felt okay again.

The brain's so sophisticated, it probably isn't quite using it in the same way that it was when it was painful. But that will probably be at the detriment or the cost to somewhere else.

Richard Graves (05:51.939)
Let's get into how sports science itself is helping you and the industry then because we've had many regular listeners will be aware of Dave Hancock who's now based over in the Greater New York area and he spoke to us about this theory had where you throw up a green screen. He didn't want to know the injury history of clients that were coming in. He just wants to put them in front of a green screen and put them through a series of movements and that by definition when he looked at the results would pinpoint for him.

where the problem was in the body and quite often it could be an issue in the leg and yet it was nothing to do with the leg it was maybe in the upper body or something of that ilk. So how is sports science helping you in your

David Emsley (06:33.374)
Course. that that is a a a great way of looking at the body and the fact that what you're saying is you're trying to take the complaint out of it and go, No, I want to look at the function of the body. So it is it's similar to the point exactly the way we would look at things is to look at function. The difference would be that I would be saying, Okay, Richard, in you come. I want to look at show me the movement that you are having difficulty with. So what I can do is then map the movement by feeling the body and seeing what what is happening and and what is going wrong.

And pr but if you look at sports science behind that, the biomechanics of the joints and how they should be working is what you need to know and what you need to be able to understand. So you need to understand that as you flex the knee, it goes from it goes from a an externally rotated tibia to a midline position. And if it's not doing that, something's going wrong. As you flex it further, it starts to go into an internally rotated position. If it's not doing that, something's going wrong.

And it's not necessarily something wrong in the knee, as as Hancock, sorry, Dave Hancock found out, it could be anywhere. But by feeling it through movement, it's it speeds up the process and gives a kinesthetic awareness to the person who's going through the process that if I change elsewhere, if I help your low back, if I support your low back and we do the same movement and you go, There's no pain, and you go, Brilliant. Okay. So there's a definite link between these two points. So what we're trying to do is find out

From a biomechanical point of view, how what joints are doing something that we would prefer they weren't doing? And then from a movement pattern, a motor programming point of view, what are you doing to try and get around that? And if I help the air and it's under pressure, can I get you to move in a better way and thus decreasing the pain? Sometimes it doesn't decrease the pain, but normally it does. But you want to restore the right movement to the joint that is under pressure because it's moving in the wrong way to cope for something else with a deficit.

Richard Graves (08:27.37)
Okay, given what you're saying there then, how does movement data, strength testing and clinical assessment all come together to work as a whole to complement each other rather than just taking one of those sets of results in isolation and perhaps not giving you the complete picture?

David Emsley (08:48.527)
Yeah. So there's a so the reason that's a great question is because if you get a raft of information, then what happens is it shows a a strength deficit here or a movement deficit there. And it's what you often find a player's been through and they come and they say there's a twenty percent decrease in strength in the abductors on the right hand side. And you go, Okay. So from my point of view what it does is it creates a measure. Because if I'm doing my job correctly and I'm improving a motor pattern, then we should see a change in that output.

So often you see force plate results and a difference in force plate pressure. And you go, if I've changed what I think is the primary space to start your movement pattern from, we should see a change in that data. So the data is not driving the decision, but rather it's giving me a definitive outcome that I am doing the right thing. So the joy of that in golf is looking at things like smash factor in golf and effectively how hard you're hidden a thing.

and when you look you use something along the lines of a track man or a a flight analysis, if you've changed the right thing, the numbers change and they change quite significantly. and people who have struggled through their swing and you change an area, you go, I want to focus on this area because you're moving wrongly around this area, I'm changing it, you can feel it, you've got that feel in your head, now we go practice the swing. The the the data gets gets changed completely. So it's a wonderful outcome measure.

Rather than a driving me to look at what I think is wrong. So I understand that when you test the hip in isolation, there's a twenty percent decrease in abduction. In a c in a way, it's a pre brilliant piece of knowledge for us, but I want to know what happens in the movement itself, because testing it in isolation doesn't tell me what happens in the movement itself. We have weird and wonderful ways of doing things. Look at all the golf swings across the PGA tour, right? That they're all different and yet everyone is playing at such a high level. They will decide to move in a certain way.

So they all create different outcomes on their on their approach angle and the likes, but they're all they're really what they want to do is how can I function at the best given the body movements I've got.

Richard Graves (10:55.746)
Where do scans come into this journey then? Because whether it's you're trying to put something right in your golf swing, the way you feel it's adversely affecting the distance you're hitting the ball, whether it's you've got a niggle somewhere on your body, quite often you hear the default is Athlete X is being sent for a scan, we're awaiting the results and then we'll determine the course from there. Well, I'm just listening to...

some of the examples you've spoken about in the last few minutes Dave. And I'm thinking well scans are great but again taken in isolation you're not getting the full picture so how do these work in the wider scheme of things in order that the athlete does get the best treatments if you like.

David Emsley (11:42.241)
So you're you're spot on. Scans are fantastic. Yeah. And so and if you want to ascertain the level of damage that has occurred somewhere, I I I will run multiple players to scanners. Because what I want to know is to what level can we what level can we pitch your rehab at to make sure that if there is damage that is underlying, we're not doing any further damage. But a scan is a view of one area that's being put under pressure. So if you have got a hamstring that's gone that's gone pop,

And you go, right, okay. And they've gone to the scanner, as you say, and this they come back and it's a great you grade you tear. Right, they're there that normally kicks in a rehab protocol of of loading and strengthening to try and make the hamstring stronger. But the way I would look at it is go, okay, I I understand that. That is our symptom output. But but why did it go pop? And the why is the really, really important question. and so if you take it

Wh where where all these bizarre things cross over. If you take it into business thought processing, there's a there is a thought process called the five whys. So the five whys in business are, Richard, you go, there's a decrease in download of my of my podcast. Why? well the last person I got on was talking about X, Y, and Z. Why? And as you go to the fifth Y, you start to understand why that change occurred. So if you do the same in the body, it often goes further than five, but that's life.

you start going, why why is the hamstr why was the hamstring put into that position? Unless someone would kick it and it was an unusual movement. If you've got a hamstring that I was running and it just went pop, then that shouldn't happen with the level of athleticism these guys have. So therefore the the hamstring has been asked to work in a position that it shouldn't have been asked to work in. There'll be something else that has preempted that happening. So it's when you find that thing

Then you want to work on whatever wasn't working elsewhere in the body and load the hamstring, and then you'll get total output.

Richard Graves (13:36.291)
In that example you mentioned there Dave, is there an argument that says technology is great, the advancements in all spheres have been mind-blowing at times and they've provided us with great leaps forward, certainly in sports science. But are there occasions when perhaps some of us rely too much on technology, take the data that we're given too literally, especially when we're talking about individuals and bodies and components.

Do sometimes we need to just rein ourselves in a little?

David Emsley (14:10.461)
I guess from my perspective, of course, I'm gonna say absolutely Richard, yeah. It's so I think I think rather that we we underestimate the the power of of doing things of assessing with our hands and doing things and showing people how to move. So we've gone towards a how can I rigidly test this person? I can do a quads contraction, I can do this, I can test these different things. And they are quantitative tests and not qualitative tests. So if I ask you to stand on one leg and then stand on the other leg,

Really the question should be, how did you how easy did you feel it was to stand on your right leg and your left leg? Because you're gonna have to do that. And if you don't feel as easy standing on your left leg, that actually is a problem as you get higher and higher into into elite sport. So you need to try and find as good a symmetry as you can get. And some of it will be tested, i.e. you could look at strength testing, which would show you a level of data which would corroborate some of this.

But really the quality of movement doesn't get tested. How you achieve what you're trying to do is it's it's it it's almost indis i is uncapturable.

Richard Graves (15:19.854)
The reason I ask this question is because, and I'm sure many of our listeners, particularly in an amateur field, will have come across these instances. Quite often you can be playing for the local village, the local town, the local country club, whatever it might be, and somebody will have an injury and be on, it could be a hamstring injury, could be a knee strain, anything like that, and the coach will say, well, I need you to do these exercises.

And feels rather generic at times. And what we're talking about here is each individual, their body, the way it moves, everyone is different. And therefore, sometimes is there a danger that for just because it sounds like the same ailments, we're quite generic in the rehabilitation schedules that are prescribed and that is not necessarily the right way for it.

David Emsley (16:11.089)
Definitely. Yeah. So I I've seen it in practice. I've seen it in practice in in athletics where people are trained the same way. And you go, but you have different body composition, you have different strengths in a sprint, so why are you all doing the same weights and the same lifts and same everything else? you see it in in football as well, you see it in in golf as you say, the classic off the manual. if you've got back pain you do these five exercises and you'll be right as rain. and it as you say

Richard Graves (16:37.71)
Well to that end, everybody tried to follow Tiger Woods and the incredible regime he supposedly followed every day where he'd start in the gym and build up and became quite strong in his upper body and there's a whole generation of PGA Tour golfers that tried following that and with the exception of maybe Bryson DeChambeau, I think all of them at some point or other have had ailments.

David Emsley (16:59.79)
Yeah. and it's and golf is it's it's high i it's high velocity, it's high force. So if you're not doing it quite right, it certainly shows up and it it's not a not an ideal thing, shall we say. So yeah, if if you're if you're trying to follow someone else's mantra, you have to be super careful because the way somebody goes about it, unless you are the same body setup that they are and using the same people and the same thought processes, then you go about it in a different way. You're trying to see that you're trying to get the same output, but not necessarily

With the right mechanisms.

Richard Graves (17:31.311)
And moving this conversation a little broader in the spectrum as well, you go across it to another American sport, the NFL, Tom Brady played at the highest level until he was 45 years old. And I know more recently he's given a number of talks about his career path and 10 years in how he was struggling a bit with soreness in his elbow, soreness in his shoulder through repeatedly throwing the football and the physician he spoke to at the time prescribed surgery.

A conversation took place with somebody from a different background and they said, well, we'll just hang on a minute. We don't need to start chopping tendons and so forth. What we really need to do is lengthen the ligaments and lengthen the tendons. And as it happened for Tom Brady, it worked because he more than doubled the length of his career and went on to win Super Bowls at two different organizations. What I'm trying to get to is there appears to be different trains of thought that can actually deliver really positive outcomes.

David Emsley (18:31.544)
Yeah, I think so. And I think you can see it in various sports. And so when you look at say Tom Brady, you look at Roger Federer, you look at say Gigsy playing football, they from my understanding of of of what they've said and not met them, so I can't comment officially, but what yeah, what they've said, what they've been talking about is is movement specificity. Can I move better? And moving better, it it allows the muscles to connect in a better way, you effectively get better efficiency.

and you stop working around problems and you actually get the best movement you can. You're stacking the body in the best possible way. You're loading the bones in the best possible way. So your skeletal health should go should be better for longer.

Richard Graves (19:14.188)
Listening to these athletes that have had tremendous longevity and success in their careers before they ultimately retired, one phrase kept cropping up time and time again, adaptive potential. Now, I'm not sure even now, having looked into it, I know truly what that means. So I'm going to ask you to decode it for me and my listeners right now, but it is clearly something that increasingly top level athletes are aware of.

David Emsley (19:39.596)
So if you if you look at adaptive potential across a species, right, it's our ability to adapt and and to stop survival of the fittest, Darwinian theory. So if if more different threats are coming to us in the world, our bodies and our minds and our genetics morph and change and work out how we can keep on surviving generation after generation after generation. If you look at adaptive potential within the body, it's our ability to sustain movement or sustain what we need to do.

given any challenges that we face. So as a if I if we look at it in a in a body mechanics or biomechanics kind of way, if you have sprained your ankle when you're fourteen, you then rehab it to your best ability and you go you make it strong. Okay, so this is where we get back to the the Bryce and and and strength. So there tends to be a rehab strategy is can I make it strong? Can I make it usable? Okay, so it's become usable, but it's not working in its ideal manner.

So therefore what now has to happen further up the kinetic chain is something has to move differently. So the hip starts getting put under pressure. And again, the body's there going, right, in order that I can keep on doing what I need to do, which is to perform, I need to change the way I move around that hip. If you take it back to caveman times, it's so that we could always go out and hunt together. The body the brain is just that good at going, okay, that hurt. I still need to feed, therefore, if I move like this, I can carry on.

So the body has a an amount of adaptive potential, i.e., we can do that so many times until you finally get to the ceiling of that point and you go, I have no more adaptation I can do. I'm now try I now I'm loading a chain that has adapted and it's not working, but I can't move in any other way because all of my adaptive potential has been taken up.

I have cha my foot hasn't moved well, so my knee is different, so my hip is different, so my lower back is different, so my thorax and it keeps on going all the way up the chain. And eventually you find a point you go, I'm a bit stuffed here.

Richard Graves (21:44.687)
I'm going to throw another name at you now from the world of cricket, Jimmy Anderson. Cricket lovers will recall that he burst onto the scene as a teenager, raw pace, performed well in one of the early World T20s and then a coach or coaches took him to one side and decided that his bowling action wasn't good enough because people remember as he completed his bowling action he'd be looking straight down at the ground, not at where he was aiming. They felt that perhaps he needed to be

David Emsley (21:46.419)
Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Graves (22:13.166)
a little bit more open-chested and they changed his action. He worked for four or five years on this. In the process, he loses his place in the England team. He was accused of having the yips because he couldn't control where the ball was going. He picked up niggling injuries. I think I'm right in saying that at some point he had a stress fracture of his back as well and ultimately decided enough with this. I'm going back to basics at what made me a good cricketer to start with. Once he did that, he gets a recall at the end of the the noughties to

England test team and the rest is history becomes England's all-time leading wicket taker as a seam bowler. Is there an argument here that says the body's ability to adapt is actually more important than our seemingly perennial quest to find that perfect rotation, bowling action, whatever it might be?

David Emsley (23:06.44)
Yeah, I think so. I think we go back to golf swings. You go back to how many different golf rings there are on the how many different golf swings there are on tour, so more water. and the the body the bodies react all day every day. And the fa the great phrase is you are what you do every day. So in Jimmy's case, again, I've not met him, so I can't can't comment officially just from what we've seen. he learned to bowl in a certain way and he was really good at it. So his body has worked out how to groove that motor pattern.

And then someone goes, I'm gonna change that motor pattern. So he's now got to adapt to a different a different load and a different position. And it the the head's in a different position, the eyes are in a different position. The the the the difficulty for the body to do that it is substantial. So when you look at the yeah, the the argument that I what we want is it for it to be better, and you look and go, but if it was already really good, hone what's really good.

With a caveat, as long as it's not doing a really horrible biomechanical movement, which means that in two years you will have a stress fracture. So the time to change things is where you look at the the biomechanics of the situation and go, Yes, you are producing the best out you know outswing that we've seen in a decade, but what you are doing is you're doing it by putting the the body in a position that excessively loads one or two areas and they will fail over a period of time.

Richard Graves (24:32.386)
Can train adaptability or is it just something that's inherently natural to each individual?

David Emsley (24:38.233)
There's a question. So I think probably it's the latter, but I think we have to understand adaptability. And I think so I think we all have a level of adaptability, but there is different body types and different abilities to change how we move. The most incredible thing about high level performers is how how good they are at adapting. And they adapt fast. So if you stood me on a wobble board or a an upside down ball, I'd probably fall off it.

I and and you but you stick one of these high high functioning guys on it and they don't just do that, they juggle with chainsaws. That's that that's how good they are. So the the problem with that is the fact that they are so fast at adapting that you're you're sort of going, Okay, you're gonna pick up really good habits I'm trying to get you to do, but blum, you're gonna pick up really bad habits really quickly as well. So that's where quality coaching and understand the body within coaching comes into it.

But can you train it? You can certainly show people what they're where they're adapting and how they're adapting. Now, whether you can train someone to be able to adapt more or less, the role of the role of ourselves in in in in our area in body mechanics is to say everybody's journey is on a it's on a roadway or an a bowling alley. And we know this ball is going to go from side to side in the alley, and that's okay as long as it's still moving in the right direction. The nearer to the middle of the alley you can keep that ball.

The better your performance is and the happier we all are. Our big thing is that when the ball gets towards the gutter, we have to go, why is it towards the gutter? What where have you adapted to to get to this point? And how do I adapt have how do I change those adaptations to get you back towards the middle? So we've all adapted in some way or another. We've all had a rucksack on one side, we've all played racket sports and got one side more dominance over the other. The

The trick is to go, can we c can we maintain as much adaptability as possible such that when you're given a situation where you're playing football, you're balancing in your right leg, you're going to trap the ball with your left, someone's coming to collide from behind and you're trying to look where the players move to, that you are in a position you can go, do you know what? I can take these perturbations through the body because I'm not having I haven't got a rigid pattern that's holding me braced, but once I'm held braced and someone comes into me from behind, I'm like, okay, that's bad news.

David Emsley (26:58.645)
That's put my body into position that it couldn't sustain.

Richard Graves (27:01.582)
So as a physio then Dave, in the context of an athlete looking to return to play from having an injury, what's the most important question in your mind that you need to ask when you're taking them on this road to recovery? Is it, can they do it or can they adapt to it?

David Emsley (27:19.905)
there we go. So I guess part of this is the fact that as you say, if you if you've got an injury that niggles you and you you w y you work the muscles a bit better and a bit more happily and it gets better, you sort of sit there and go, Okay, that that's not a bad thing. So when you look at a long if you if you look at a long term injury, then you go the most important thing for if it's a long term injury, if it's something that's brewed for a while, you've got to get someone moving

Better. The key thing is you've got to load this better, otherwise this won't get better. If you've got someone who has a long history of injury, you've got to work out what is the potential I have here. Do you have an ankle that was broken, is no longer in a good mechanical position? Hence a scan X-ray, what can I actually do with this? Or do you have someone who is just unaware that they've moved this way for a long period of time and they need to move that way? So I've skirted your question slightly, I understand that. So sorry about that.

but I but I guess so the number of times I'll say to someone, right, we're standing in a mirror and you'll go, Brilliant, are you standing straight? This is how you normally stand and I talk for a few minutes to make sure they're comfortable. And then you look in the mirror and you realise that in the mirror they are whoop over here somewhere like this. Yeah. And you go, That that's you straight. Yeah, yeah, brilliant. And you go, Okay, but if I was to put your body here in the middle, I don't like that. No, no, that feels like I'm about to fall over.

And the brain has adapted to the position in space. So it the biggest thing for anyone with an injury is to understand, hopefully A, it can get better, and B is how how do you move better to make the injury better faster? So if you're if you're my and I'm I'm as bad as anyone, right? We're all we're all say barmachanophysio, I get out for a run, my knee hurts slightly, I stop running, I rest it for period of time, and I probably do the same again.

And you think, what a wally, right? Like th it's like builders living in houses that haven't quite been finished. The frustration is I know how to treat it. And it's whether I want to put the time or energy into treating it. Because it often comes down to how much is this deficit stopping you doing what you want to do. So if you can't run, then you would come and seek help and we would say, Right, this is how we can get you running again, and this is the basis of it, this is what you need to go and do. And often that pathway lasts for a period of time.

David Emsley (29:38.918)
And then you go, well, I'm running a few kilometers now. I think I can take it from here. Thanks, Dave. I'll see you later on. And you go, okay. So you've learned to ass you've gone on this part of the journey, and I realize this part up here is quite a long way away, but you're happy here. And then you sort of bob along here like so. And it's because it's not affecting you so much anymore. Because you were only actually three kilometres is okay. I'll do that. I'll just run that. I'm all right. That's great. Thank you very much. Whereas

In the ideal world, and this is where the difficulty of the ideal world and what happens in practice is we go, no, Richard, you're running three kilometres, but we need to hone a movement pattern and make sure that you don't go back into your old ways, because the body's really good at regressing, and actually we need to take you further than you need to go. You need if you want to run ten, I need to take you to twelve to fifteen. And what we need to do is I need to assess you when you've run eight, please. Because then I'll see what your body's doing at that period of time. And this is where you look at

A sort of a a a friendly part playing footballer who hurts his leg, likelihood is he'll rest it and it will get better and he can continue to play football. It may well be the knock-on effect further down the line is something that's a bit worse, but if he doesn't stop him playing football, it doesn't worry him, right? And we get that, that's human nature. If sorry, if it if it puts him on the sidelines, he's playing substitute and he doesn't he wants he's desperate to get back on, and you go, This is the journey.

The super committed people go with the journey and they're you know, they they're they're way better than anybody else over a period of time. And then the people who wanted to get back on the pitch, get back on the pitch and then it fizzles out of it.

Richard Graves (31:14.382)
And do you know what the great thing about that Dave is? I'm convinced that both in our listeners to this podcast and our viewers on our YouTube channel, Science for Sport, we'll be able to relate to both of those scenarios that you've highlighted there. Listen, time has got the better of us. This has been a fascinating conversation. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. And I'd love to have you back on the podcast again at some point down the line if you have the time to join us. In the meantime,

Where can our listeners and viewers find you on social media? And if needs be, just pick your brain on one or two topics.

David Emsley (31:47.981)
Wonderful. So if you go easiest easiest access point is a website. Richard's you found when you were trying look for me. we're we are not we're not technophobes, but at the end of the day, people who know us they know us. and people who want to find us do find us. so if you go to the website www. www.thebottommechanics dot co dot uk, all the all all the links are on there. Click on, yeah, come join us, come follow us. It'd be good to have you on board.

Richard Graves (32:11.064)
Fantastic. Like I say, it's been a thoroughly enjoyable conversation. Wish you all the best going forward and we'll definitely be inviting you back on, Dave.

David Emsley (32:18.67)
Fantastic right. Thank you very much for having me. Really appreciate it. Look forward to coming back on. So enjoy the sunshine.