Richard Graves (00:00.941)
Well, John Sorokin, Alan Thompson, it's fantastic to have you with me on this weekend, this week's Science for Sport podcast. Welcome along to the show.

John Sorochan (00:09.388)
Traving me.

Alan Thomson (00:09.53)
Pleasure. Yeah, thank you.

Richard Graves (00:10.937)
Before we get into the crux of the debate between various playing surfaces that are available right now, we'll bring our listeners and viewers on YouTube channel up to speed with your careers. We'll start with you first of all, John, because as I was preparing for this chat, I saw somewhere you called yourself a Turfi. So explain to us exactly what a Turfi is and how you ended up at the University of Tennessee.

John Sorochan (00:34.754)
Yeah, well turfee, first of all, is, you know, someone that's passionate about turf grass science, and grass, growing grass for a living. So, you know, it's really what we call each other in the in the industry. Most of the people that want to be golf course superintendents or green keepers of for golf call themselves turfeys. And you know, it's passionate 'cause it's not work. It's it's something you love to do. But yeah, I came to doing what I'm doing. I was born and raised in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. and my neighbor actually grown up was worked in the industry, his my his

the his dad was a golf course superintendent and my neighbor got into golf course construction, went to Michigan State University a long time ago, and when he graduated from there, he he got hired by Robert Trent Jones to build and design and shape golf courses all over Europe. And this is in the eighties and I went backpacking through Europe and southern Spain and stayed with him for a few days and I thought what a life. He's living you know, in he can see Gibraltar, met he can see Morocco and he's

on the Mediterranean, going all over Europe building and shaping courses. So I went home and went back to University of Calgary and studied geology and political science, thinking I'd be a lawyer in the oil and gas industry, hated it. Worked on a golf course and liked that. So I transferred to Michigan State University myself and intended to get into the golf course construction business. But the nineteen ninety four World Cup happened and I got to be a student worker on that project and that's what turned me on to research and to where I am today. I

Ended up four degrees later from Michigan State University and a professor at University of Tennessee studying turf craft science.

Richard Graves (02:06.137)
Yeah, and you work with leading organizations such as Major League Baseball, the NFL, MLS. It's been quite a journey, no doubt, as it has, I believe, for you, Alan, because for the last three years or so, you've been director for SIS out in the USA, helping install pitches there, but you've had a career in grass and pitch preparation as well. So just tell us a little bit about your journey.

Alan Thomson (02:30.03)
Yeah, I mean going back to it, you know, starting in the golfing world, probably similar to to John there. I'm obviously disappointed that he said on his his travels he didn't mention travelling to the beautiful Scotland to to look at some some golf courses here right enough. But yeah, I started in in golf in in Scotland. worked way through there and and eventually found myself working on on football pitches, helping maintain them and renovate them and build them. and

more latterly came across, you know, across paths with Cis and let's just say the rest is history for the last three years. So it's been a it's sight and time and and and travelling around the world and and understanding different elements and how we can how we can shape different things with different climates and and clients. So

Richard Graves (03:12.377)
Yeah, and as we'll discuss a little bit later, you're intrinsically involved in the preparation of playing surfaces for this past summer's FIFA World Cup as well. Okay, let's start by getting to the heart of the issue here. What does the science actually tell us, John, about that relationship between playing surfaces, player movement and injury risk?

John Sorochan (03:33.719)
Yeah, so you know, when we when we when we look at pitches and we look at it, you know, there's three factors that come into play for player performance and safety and it's the it's the athlete themselves, it's the surface, and then the footwear they're wearing and the how those three things come together and their interaction determines, you know, the quality of play that a player's gonna have, whether they you know they're slipping and falling, or maybe they get too much traction to where they roll an ankle or or or blow a knee out to you know, t optimally, you know, you wanna be at that elite performance for playability, but also

Dan (03:49.602)
Okay. Okay.

Richard Graves (04:06.309)
And the reason we've got this debate, Alan, is because there are options when it comes to playing surfaces. For myself, working as I do with English Football League clubs and the Premier League, it's commonplace to have a hybrid system, not so necessarily across American sports. take us through the options that are available today from natural grass, synthetic turf, to that hybrid model as well.

Alan Thomson (04:30.628)
Yeah, I think I think when you look at the hybrid model, you know, the technology's been around since the early two thousands, potentially even latterly the the the late nineties, really when it came into the development phase. But, you know, back then it was really it was really pushed towards towards football pitches. You know, it was it was deemed towards that, that's where it was born and bred if you really want to classify it as that. And I think through the years it was okay, how can we take that technology and apply it to different sports? Now that has then subsequently put us into to the rugby world, to the tennis world, the cricket world.

You know, even more lately over the n the last you know eighteen months is really looking at okay from we were involved in the first NFL field that we were involved in in twenty eighteen to to now being involved in baseball fields and even lacrosse field as well. So we've seen that transition of you know where that technology has been able to apply itself, but also looking at the technology and saying, Okay, how can we can we differ that and have that as an option where we have the natural sense of the world and then we have the artificial world as as how can

we position you know hybrid as a as a third option in that in that sense within certain sports for sure and and also innovating that hybrid product to say well we can actually use this technology and and make it apply to that venue hence the reason of of various options that I'm sure will will come into play later on in the conversation.

Richard Graves (05:52.088)
Yeah, absolutely. And regular listeners to this podcast will recall a conversation we had almost a year ago to the day with the NFL's field director, Nick Pappas, discussing the different options, the testing that goes on, be it at somewhere like Tottenham Hotspur Stadium or when they were preparing to go to Croke Park in Ireland last winter and then to the Bernabeu in Madrid. So, John, a lot of testing goes into these surfaces ever before they're laid in a stadium and certainly before they're played on.

When you test these playing surfaces, what are you actually measuring and what do those measurements tell us in terms of what is capable in player performance and player safety?

John Sorochan (06:32.534)
Yeah, so there's a there's a lot of different tests that go on, you know, when when it comes to measuring and testing the the s the pitches and you know looking at you know simply looking at the surface hardness or uniformity, measuring how much you know cover there is of grass and then the the the resistance of that grass, whether you're doing a rotational test or a a translational test or an impact test on it. You know, there's different ways to assess it and look at it. But the goal is to identify, you know, kind of corridors or ranges that you want to be within as well as looking

Richard Graves (07:06.701)
Now in America, everybody's familiar with either artificial turf or natural grass. We touched upon it earlier. Hybrid is still relatively new when it comes to American sports, not least because many venues are multipurpose and 12 month a year staging events. So Alan, when we're talking hybrid grass, what are we talking about and what does that synthetic component bring to natural grass?

Alan Thomson (07:29.978)
Yeah, I I think one of the things that the and and it's a natural thing, you know, when we talk about hybrid element to to those who who don't really know what it is, you know, you mentioned it is relatively new to to to the US marketplace in terms of people looking at it. you know, sometimes they get a little bit confused between artificial turf and they think it's artificial turf or some sort of a, you know, version of that. And I think when you start to explain that, you know, that the field is, you know, ninety five percent natural, all we're doing is is is ultimately injecting a fibre that would

cover the percentage rate of five percent across the full field. Now that would look like in a a two centimetre by two centimetre spacing or if you want to go down the the feet and inches the 0.79 by 0.79 of an inch in terms of spacing but it it really comes down to to that spacing and that depth. Now if we go back to historical days, you know it was one depth that was seven inch. It was 180 mil. That that was that was it.

And then in 2015 to 2016, when we started to look at that, okay, well, do we always need to go seven inch? You know, can we stitch that a little bit shallower and and give that resilience, give that, you know, that that that stability within that root structure to allow those roots to grab on? Does it really need to be seven inch? And and we started stitching it at 90 mil or you know, three and a half inch at that at that point, which allowed us to go into the different sports. And it's actually a conversation that that I think you know we had with John back when we'd done the test.

testing phase well John John's probably best to to tell the story on how he came up with a the more shallower option I'm sure we'll come on to in a little bit and what's just applied itself to

to the facilities that we see now, especially on the the high turnover commercial facilities, 'cause let's face it, you know, sports stadiums are not sports stadiums anymore. Th they're a commercial venue that, you know, we need to be able to to to ship out and ship in certain sports, certain concerts, certain monster truck venues and things like that. But when we're looking at the the reinforcement itself, you know that the important part is to is to look at the stability, is to look at the reinforcement, the consistency for the player, you know, being able to to not have a a level change on that surface

Alan Thomson (09:38.178)
when you get that you know that little bit of wear tolerance on the on the grass surface itself. and I think, you know, through th those years of of testing it and changing it and tweaking it and innovating certain elements, you know, w we're probably where we are today with with more no notably a lot of the things that that John's been involved in from a research standpoint over the last two to three years. From the last summer's tournament, the Club World Cup and even even beyond that, going back probably to twenty eighteen and beyond, John, I'm sure you'll be best to to come in here.

Richard Graves (10:11.865)
Well, OK, John, since Alan's teed you up so nicely, tell us the story of how it came about that you were able to sow at a shallower level and also from a perspective. What does hybrid surfaces enable to do that natural grass doesn't necessarily allow?

John Sorochan (10:15.085)
Okay.

John Sorochan (10:33.548)
Yeah, so I'm gonna kinda give a little bit of more of a historical perspective on this. I first did hybrid research back in nineteen ninety five, with the hybrid carpeted systems and those were put in in the NFL stadiums. some NFL stadiums, even in some colleges, but it was that technology when that came out, when it and even in the original stitching, was the cart was put out before the horse.

kind of speak and we didn't know how to manage these and we didn't know how to use these. And then, you know, Alan's touched on it as well, the practicality of these stadiums. You know, there was a stadium that had a hybrid carpet system in it. There are stadiums that had a stitch system in in the late nineties, early two thousands. But because in the US these are multi use stadiums, you know, they're resoding. And as soon as you have to resod a stitch system, you know, you've kind of buried it. And so my research program as I've gone along, when I started getting into a lot more stitching

research and working with SIS, for instance, on them being adaptive to what we can do is looking for change. how can we have a real world application of this system, but how do we test the limits of how it works as well? And knowing the end use is multi-use stadiums potentially. And that's where I gave the the an idea back I think it was you know we first started doing research with SIS in 2016. Go through the pandemic we continued stuff but it was just after the pandemic

pandemic I said we were looking at you know a hundred mils of depth so not you know what is that four inches four inch depth of mil maybe but

Could we go even shallower? Could we get to a two and a half inch or a 65 mil depth? And they're like, yeah, but why would you? Why would you want to do that and it won't work? Well, we don't know unless we try it. And I've had these conversations with Evo, with Sis, and George. And you know, come to it's like, well, let's just try it and we'll see what happens. And lo and behold, we put it in and it gets tacked in. And you we looked at with a flex machine that we developed, the foot striking it, you got that stabilization that you want. Because what you want to answer your question is the difference between straight natural.

John Sorochan (12:41.784)
Grass and a hybrid reinforced is when we build and construct pitches out of sand, that hybrid stitching.

acts like rebar to stabilize that sand and so you don't get massive blowouts, you don't get the bigger divots when the player is running and cutting. And it provides a more consistent and uniform surface as the grass gets worn. Because the grass is, you know, it's a biological organism. You abuse it, it's gonna die. So we can maintain a consistent surface. And then being able to get into these shallow profiles, it holds up and performs well so that you can now come in and in and with a top maker and strip out the surface and

Alan Thomson (13:14.607)
Well

John Sorochan (13:20.034)
have a whole brand new surface that you can you know re-sod and and restitch again or we've even been able to stitch sod grown on plastic now and bring in a hybrid stitch sod. So we've really looked at how you can change these things and make multi-use stadiums more versatile and have a hybrid reinforcement.

Richard Graves (13:35.298)
Yeah, and from what you're saying it strikes me that the understanding of the different playing surfaces and the technology involved has come on exponentially in the 30 year or so time span you're talking about there from when the World Cup was in the United States in 1994 to this past summer. I think I'm right in saying Alan that CIS were involved in laying surfaces for nine of the stadiums that were used in the World Cup. Given what John's just said there about

challenges posed 30 years ago, what were the challenges this time around in converting those stadia to being World Cup-ready venues?

Alan Thomson (14:11.875)
Yeah, I I think even when you when you go that little bit further back, you know, for for for us it's this pitches, you know. our first stitch pitch was in twenty fifteen.

You know, so we we're technically only eleven years old when it comes to to to the system and technology that we've developed. and I think that's a testament to, you know, these conversations that we've had with with John and and with others to say, okay, well how can we how can we mo be more adaptable? Now I think that was a big testament to that adaptability when it came to the Club World Cup last year. You know, we knew that some of these stadiums and and and John was was right at the forefront of this with the research over the past two or three years prior to that was

you know they they're probably not going to have time to to put a root zone structured system in fully you know the the the options at that point were to test and look into the the appointments of permavoid systems and laying sod on plastic we stitch the sawdone plastic in the farm and and ship it out or how many ways we could adapt to that and I think you know from the innovation team was was redeveloping our machines to to to stitch that shallow in essence to to have that adaptability so a lot was tested going back are you

year further in the Club World Cup to see where we're going. But coming back to the question about this summer was really

you know, they had time to to build the pitches. You know, our element out of those venues that we were involved in, you know, out of the the nine, three of them were were from a a a different system that we have and and six of them were from a a stitching standpoint. You know, if we look at the more permanent stitching structure we had Mexico from a logistical perspective all the way to to Canada, all the way to San Francisco and across to to MetLife, Kansas and and Miami, you know, logistically it was it was organizing that probably more

John Sorochan (15:44.899)
Yeah, we look.

Alan Thomson (15:59.117)
than anything else to make sure we were on time because we were obviously at the helm of of when each venue was was developing their facility into the the the construction phase. If we go back to you know up in Toronto, you know, we done that field in in November of last year. You know, that was how that was the first one we done. Then it was on to Monterey with the the reconstruction there and and and stitching that also. Probably the cluster of of logistical nightmares shall we call it was was the four that was in that that middle ground was

coming after the the the the commercial season, getting ready for the the the World Cup season. You know, we had to we had to make sure that the trucks were on the road and machines turned up in time.

And in that instance they had a root zone base. So they had a root zone base that we could stitch at a little bit deeper compared to the year previous, you know, where we're stitching on that shallower depth and and then this summer it was stitching at at the at the eighty mil depth or the three point one four inch, shall we say. and and that gave us the the the kind of consistency through through all those venues in terms of what we had to achieve at that point because they had that that full construction ready to go for the summer.

Richard Graves (17:06.251)
Yeah, and the one thing that immediately leaps off the page to me when I listen to you talk there about the various venues. We talked about it just watching the World Cup. The vast area that the tournament was hosted across. And of course, with that comes different conditions. The altitude in Mexico, the heat and humidity in Miami to going up into Canada as well. I wonder, John, did those hybrid surfaces reinforce

what we expected and what we thought we know scientifically about the way they perform and how players react to them? Or did it challenge some of the existing assumptions?

John Sorochan (17:44.458)
No, it it reinforced ab absolutely. And you know, that was one of the you know, when we got into doing the research for the World Cup and you know, we were charged with consistency and uniformity across pitches, within the pitch from the first match to the last match, and then across all pitches and knowing that, you know, like you said, from altitude, five indoor stadiums, Miami at sea level in a tropical climate, you know, Kansas City in a really hot i middle of the country climate to

You know, the Pacific Northwest in Vancouver and Seattle or Boston, you got cool season in Toronto. How do we know different grasses are gonna be better? And that's just some of the research I was confident going in because we did this work way before I even knew the World Cup was gonna be coming to the US and Canada and Mexico with with CIS, comparing Bermuda grass and the the bluegrass or metal grass, and how those grasses combine like they're different enough that a ball's gonna perform differently.

player running and cutting is on its plane. But as soon as you stitch them, it what I what I say it homogenizes those surfaces so that they become more similar. The the bluegrass plays more like a Bermuda grass in terms of a stability and you know for a player running and cutting, but also the ball interactions we can we can now come up with management to make these surfaces a little bit even though they look different, they're gonna play more similar. So when a team goes from Miami to Boston, it's it's gonna be the same. Feel a foot.

And the ball roll and bounce is gonna be the same. And that's what we got.

Richard Graves (19:13.611)
I think from the layman's perspective one of the most impressive things was MetLife Stadium in New Jersey. has been associated for several years now with question marks about the playing surface. In fact, I think I'm correct in saying back in 2023 they ripped up the surface there and relayed the artificial surface because there were concerns about the number of lower limb injuries players were sustaining. Well, you lay down this hybrid surface for the FIFA World Cup and it seemed on the face of it to play extremely well,

John Sorochan (19:43.514)
Yeah, it played great. It you know, it it it held up to what we needed it to do and what we were charged with doing. We're you know, constructing a natural grass pitch above it was it was fantastic. And, you know, we had to convert eight synthetic stadiums to natural grass for the World Cup and you know, it was it was done and you know, held up they held up for everything. You know, I think this is the first World Cup I'd seen at the end of it of the World Cup. You didn't see noticeable wear in the gold mouse. You know, you've always seen something, but you know, nine matches in Dallas and there's still grass.

Richard Graves (20:11.875)
Yeah, absolutely. And Alan, given what John's just told us there, how does the testing and the data that he's described to us influence the pitch that you deliver on site in the stadium? And we mentioned the breadth of geography that the World Cup covered. How much of a factor is the climate in all of this as well?

Alan Thomson (20:35.802)
Yeah, I I th I think when you

You know, to to t to take it back a an even step again, you know, when we look at the hybrid element, when we look at elements of of the construction of the build, you know, no matter where it was indoor, outdoor, whether it was north, south, east or west, I I think, you know, a huge credit has to go to the to the venue managers, you know, the guys who are there day to day because ultimately everything that is put into a field is is is tools in a toolbox, right? It's it's it's tools to allow them to produce a field for that game.

that training facility session, you know, whatever it may be, and I think you know they they're a huge part, if not you know, more than you know, we're we're a small e element of that. We're a kind of undercover element that that nobody really gets to see in terms of who we are, which which in in one in one hand is is a great thing because you know testament to the guys that are are dealing with these venues, no, they they know their site more than anybody. You know, the the guys whether they're from MetLife, whether they're at San Francisco, up in Canada or down in Mexico, they know their site. They breathe it every day.

They know the what the weather partners kinda hopefully roughly do. I know it's always a I guessing game at times, but you know, they they're they're the testament to be able to produce facilities. You know, we're just a small element to that. And if we can help on that matter by it's a system thing, it's a hybrid element to it, you know, we'll look at what options that we can offer to them to to help and assist. But they they're really behind the the success of of these pitches along with the research and development that's been put into them.

Richard Graves (22:05.847)
Yeah, and as we know, from what you've told us, Alan Siss continues to develop the hybrid stitching playing surface as well as subsurface systems. From a research perspective, John, what do you need to see and establish before you can say, right, a new technology is on the market and we're seeing a positive impact when it comes to performance and player safety?

John Sorochan (22:28.377)
Yeah, so we're we're always testing the limits when we're doing research. We wanna you know, so we we we simulate where we simulate traffic that we're we're we're doing things. So we wanna look at the limits and then we wanna look at things of how how durable it is, how much it holds up, what

You know, again to get into the consistency and uniformity, what so how it changes over time, but also recovery and how to how to manage these things. So we come and do a management thing, is a lot of it comes down to and and Alan said, you know, that these field managers, these pitch managers know know their their venue, their stadiums really well. So, you know, we learn just as much from them as well. So

you know, talking and communicating, whether it's Paul Ashcroft with Arsenal to, you know, Matt Greiner with with the San Francisco Forty Niners, they I've learned so much from them and what they do to keep these surfaces the way they need to be. And we could we just come and validate it and we quantify it on a research standpoint a lot of times.

Richard Graves (23:20.285)
and there are challenges and sometimes unforeseen challenges that arrive as well. I'll confess I don't know whether either of you have been involved in the construction of the playing surface at the new Highmark Stadium, the new home of the Buffalo Bills, but it's been well documented obviously. They laid down a state-of-the-art surface and in pre-season games there were sods tearing up and they just decided three weeks before their first home game they were going to lay down a new surface. There was an article, I don't know if you saw it on the Athletic, talking about

John Sorochan (23:24.357)
Mm-hmm.

Richard Graves (23:48.416)
subsurface systems and maybe the tech being too controlled and they had a green keeping expert there talking about a golf course that had problems with these greens because the technology was so good it wasn't making the grassroot work hard enough in order to establish itself. Without using Buffalo as a specific example how do you circumnavigate those challenges and how often do they occur?

And either of you can take that question, by the way.

Alan Thomson (24:16.305)
Yeah.

John Sorochan (24:17.251)
Yeah.

Alan Thomson (24:18.373)
Yeah, no, I I think it i it it comes down to, you know, like I said, the tools in the toolbox, it's it's how you're using them, it's what you're using, you know. We have this technology there that that not only works in indoor stadiums, it works in outdoor stadiums. You we've been privileged enough to to be involved with the Kingdom Arena in Saudi Arabia, which has had a a a natural hybrid surface indoors for I think this is its fifth year now, with multiple event schedules. You know, and each year they've developed the systems that they have from a subsurface standpoint all the way

through to a to a going light standpoint and obviously from a hybrid element of course as well to to allow that to to continue. And I think that's where you know these tools that that that come into play is is for new facilities that have them, they're adjusting, they're getting used to to using them. They're they're they've done the research, they know that was the right the right you know stuff systems to put in for them. It's it's it's all about you know just getting used to your your facility and your new surroundings 'cause I'm sure, you know, for anybody going into a new venue

ultimately that what it is, even though, you know, the one that you mentioned is is is across a a road or on the other side, that could be slightly different. You know, how that operates indoors it will be different to that original stadium that they had for so many years. So I think with the the the spotlight of of what you're talking about, there's so many other factors in there than just, you know, saying it i it's a certain system or it's a certain this there's multiple factors that has has come into play to to making decisions on the systems they use to

to what the performance would be like for them and their new environment that that could be so different just a short walk over the road, you know?

Richard Graves (25:55.642)
Yeah, it's an example again, isn't it? As far as technology has progressed, there are still some unforeseen circumstances. And with that in mind, then, Alan, given the way technology is advancing forward at a rapid rate of knots, what's next for you in terms of where you see playing surfaces going, what's being developed, the sports, the markets that perhaps might be on the agenda?

Alan Thomson (26:19.771)
Yeah, I mean

For us it's this, you it's been a it's been a it's a continuation of development, you know, we we've mentioned that through the machines and the depth different depths of the spacings to you know even coming out with a new bio X fiber, you know, you're looking at our fully prod biodegradable fiber that you know rather than having to to potentially split fiber and recycle it in a certain manner, we can we can send it to composting in that sense. So that's been a real innovation that's came came out. We're we've worked on eighty variations of that over the last five years and it was released this year, which has been

fantastic innovation to to bring to the marketplace. I think as well when when we when we look at where technology's going and where fields are going, we know from a a stadium standpoint, you know, we mentioned about being commercial, the more and more are going indoor, more and more are are having more pressure put on the ground staff to to be able to produce surfaces from from certain elements.

But I think when you look at you know, where we are, you know, we're we're we're we're breaking the barrier in in baseball now for us and you know we're doing a lot of stuff in the baseball world from from an NFL standpoint. You know, we've we were very, very fortunate to to stitch the the Levi Stadium for the the NFL season last year, which I know Matt and the and the crew there loved and and performed really well from the from a player aspect also. coming through to to what we're doing now with parks and wrecks. You we've been involved in parks and recs in the States and and stitching as well coming up in the next I think

four weeks we'll stitch a parts and rec' field out there. So we see this technology not only moving from what let's say the world would classify as a as an elite stadium environment or training facility environment, but the same technology has now been passed down into different sports all the way down to to parks and recs. So it shows you that availability that from a safety standpoint, a playable standpoint, you know, a consistency consistency standpoint, but also, you know, how many more games we can play on that surface before we have to do major innovations.

Alan Thomson (28:14.311)
It's actually making its way all the down parks and recs as well. So that's that's a really nice, you know, interesting time to have and be involved in that in that segment. You know, I think looking at the technology-wise, you know, probably the question is where where do we see it going? Where where can we see it developing to? I think it's refinement, you know, that my honest opinion. I think you know, we're at a time now where if you look over the last probably 15 to 20 years, one of the biggest things that's came to the market in this industry has been you know the lights. You know, we know glow from a

a growing a g a growing light standpoint, that's been a massive advantage to to field managers out there. But when we're looking at everything else around that, we look at the refinement process. We look at how do we refine, you know, CESAR products or how do we take that and and tweak it to the next advantage. I don't necessarily think it'll be coming out with anything massively new in terms of what's already out there. I think it's just tweaking it and refining it, whether that be from a an operational standpoint or a performance standpoint, what that gives it gives that field. So

Richard Graves (29:14.099)
Well the fact you say it won't necessarily be anything massively new probably is something that makes the the ears of representatives of organizations like the NFLPA pay more attention because bringing it back to that original point John, they've raised serious concerns haven't they about player safety and welfare when it comes to playing on artificial surfaces given the discussion we've just had. Does a hybrid stitched surface offer a meaningful middle ground do you feel?

John Sorochan (29:43.362)
It it definitely offers an opportunity. You know, the NFL players have spoken and that you know, they prefer to play on grass. You know, overwhelmingly, ninety ninety plus percent, ninety four percent, ninety seven percent prefer to play on grass. and having the ability to hybrid stitch, it's still playing on grass. We we we we've got the data and we've done the research that says it's like playing on grass, but you get a more consistent and more uniform surface over time. So it just gives a an

Like as as Alan said mu multiple times, the tools in your toolbox to to be able to increase the the you know, the wear the the the use of that of that surface by by reinfor hybrid reinforcement. And

Richard Graves (30:22.425)
Well, and that's the concern of stadium managers, isn't it, who know that it's not just sport they have to put on, they have to host other events in order to make that facility self-sustaining.

John Sorochan (30:29.797)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, b the ability to do this the shallow pitching, you could come in and replace a pitch easily or a field pretty quickly. So and still have it have it ready to go. and San Francisco's was a great example last season and it it will be again this season, you know, where they've been able to come in and do it. Green Bay's had it. other stadiums that have mo like a lot more events and different things, you know, there's those are things to explore and look at it. But I think the technology can now be translated to, you know, where they are all the time on on practice fields.

city park and rec fields that get a lot more use. where where people want grass, you know, it's a great thing for the environment in terms of fixing CO two. You know, you know, a it's a great absorbent of pollutants and it's a filter when you have a natural gas system. So that's it's a great thing to have in a l urban landscape and b the any ability to have grass is great. And b having hybrid reinforcement on on really it's a high use municipal port sports field to a NFL stadium is is a benefit.

Richard Graves (31:32.741)
I'm glad you mentioned Lambeau Field at Green Bay there John because just quickly I know time is fast pushing it against us. Alan you've been involved with that playing surface up at Green Bay. There's a reason. October to March they call it the frozen tundra. It is bitterly cold up there. How successful has that hybrid playing surface been at Lambeau Field?

Alan Thomson (31:53.545)
Well I'm glad you said about the weather there. I mean, it's just the same in Scotland as it is in the up in Green Bay, but no, I think, you know, y it's a testament to to Alan Johnson up there again, coming back down to to the field manager side, you know. we've we've been involved in there since twenty eighteen. We put that into the stadium, we've put it in, you know, all the the training facility fields as well since then. and coming to that kinda

Richard Graves (31:57.507)
Ha ha ha ha!

Alan Thomson (32:18.344)
Let's say nine years going on going on ten years over the next couple of years, you know, we we've seen that cycle of ten coming up in two years' time, and you know, it's a testament to to what they guys have been able to produce in those in those conditions. You know, always from a standpoint, Green Bay has always been known as a as a non commercial stadium. I think that's that's something that they've always had is just football up there. But we've seen in the last couple of years a couple of concerts creeping in in the off season now. even this season I was I had the privilege to go and see Alan and spend a bit of time.

And you know, he's mentioned about some of the concerts been on this this offseason, so it's starting even to creep in there a little bit. but I think that'll always be known as a as a football stadium first and foremost. And yeah, it's it's exciting to to see how how well that's performed over the last eight years, getting into its ninth, ninth year coming up. So it's it's it's been a testament to to Alan and the guys.

Richard Graves (33:12.055)
Absolutely. Well, listen, this has been a fascinating conversation. I certainly feel I'm going to walk away having learned a bit more from it as well. I hope our listeners have also. Alan, John, for those that follow us on Science for Sport that want to find out more and follow along on social media, where can they find you? John, first of all.

John Sorochan (33:30.603)
you can find me, you know, I'm at the University of Tennessee, obviously, and I'm also on, you know, social media as well. But yes, the University of Tennessee Turf Crass Science.

Alan Thomson (33:42.236)
Yeah, pretty much similar from a SysPitchy standpoint, you the websites there had a refresh last year, so it'll be exciting for people to navigate that and see some of the new stuff and technology that's on there. But yeah, s simple channels like LinkedIn and stuff like that are are always open and available, so

Richard Graves (33:57.785)
Fantastic. Well, once again, I genuinely appreciate your time. It's been a fantastic conversation and wish you both all the best going forward.

Alan Thomson (34:04.798)
Thanks, Richard. Appreciate it.

John Sorochan (34:05.018)
Thank you so much.