Career Leadership 02-15 Routines
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[00:00:00] You

Donna Serdula: Is it recording for you? 

Isaiah Hankel: Recording for me. Yeah. You can hear me. Okay. 

Donna Serdula: I can hear you perfectly. All right. So anyway, go on.

I'm sorry. Type a 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Yeah. For me, one of the biggest things I have to do is really control my nighttime routine. Cause if I start talking or reading about numbers and ideas and things, it's I'll just be up churning all night. And if I have something in the morning, I have to really do it.

Cause then I'll be thinking about that presentation in the morning or whatever else. At least until it becomes something that I do routinely. But if it's like a new thing in the morning, I'll be And I, my brain's ticking does not matter what, really what doesn't matter what it is, if it's new, if it's something that can be planned I think if you're a planner, that's, I don't know, maybe you're just in the same way, but 

Donna Serdula: [00:01:00] I I, so what I deal with is.

I'll wake up in the middle of the night, like at 3:00 AM and my brain will suddenly be on fire with thoughts and ideas and when that happens I've learned that I need to have a pad of paper next to my bed and I've got to jot this down because if I don't and I fall back to sleep, it's all gone. I lose it. Or the other part is. If I am up, and it's not because of the ideas and the it's more of the fears and the worries and the anxieties. And when that happens, I still need the piece of paper because if you can name your fear, you can name that anxiety, something about writing it down releases it.

And so that's what I do. I'll if I'm getting plagued by something, I will say, stop, I'll get up, Write it down, just write down what am I scared of? What is worrying me? What is, what's biting at my toes? And I'll write it down. And I find that [00:02:00] just that simple act, I'm now able to go back to sleep.

Isaiah Hankel: That's incredible. Cause my, the time that I have is always right around three o'clock. Same thing for me. All the time. 

Donna Serdula: It's the hour of the wolf. That's when most babies are born and most people die. 

Isaiah Hankel: Did you know somebody sent me this? Thanks. I used to do, I used to do some marketing work with them and they sent me this, that 1800s people would have, they would constantly refer to it as two sleeps.

So it's not this magical thing. So you'd go to, you'd have your first sleep and then most people would wake up right around that hour, like three, whatever. And then they go back to bed and they'd sleep again. And so all he sent me all these literature sources, like you can do, you can research it all kinds of articles about, and people don't refer to that really anymore now.

So once I read that, I was like, cause belief is so powerful, right? So oh, this is normal. I can just get up, write stuff down. Writing is the only thing that really works for me too. And but it helps what, when a book that I love [00:03:00] called winning by Tim Grover. He's this guy that trained Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant and all this different stuff.

Anyway, he talks about like your demons coming and visiting you at night, and it can be powerful to, to, Hear what they're saying, right? Which I guess writing it down is like, what are those? Because there's something happening in the subconscious that wakes you up. If you're thinking about that it could be something that's coming up.

Could be what are your biggest fears, the things that wake you up at night. So exploring those can help. 

Donna Serdula: I completely agree. I do feel like if it's trying to tell you something. If it's trying to tell you something, why mute it? Why, try to drug it? Why try to, do something, listen to it.

Maybe there's something there and if you could listen to it, then you can take action against it. 

Isaiah Hankel: I have a love hate relationship with things like that. I think I always think back when I was. In a similar way to when I was like competing in college for like a sport, right? You would like right before you have to go out there, you have these nerves and they're so [00:04:00] intense.

You're like, I would give anything to have these nerves go right. And I used to have coaches say one day you're going to be praying that you could still do this and that you'd still have these nerves. And I was like, no way I want these out gone. It doesn't matter if you could think about it as like baseball before you go to bat or whatever the sport is.

And now I'm like, Oh my God, I wish I had something. That was that competitive with that many people in attendance, everything, like you, you wish for that same thing. If you have a, you do a webinar or something and you have a lot of people attending, you're like, oh my God, I'm nervous.

If you're like thank God I can still get nervous. Thank God I still have something that can elevate my senses. 

Donna Serdula: Oh, yeah 

Isaiah Hankel: So I think the same thing for waking up in the middle of the night. If you had there's the part of me that's I just want to be at peace. Rest, fully slept, no anxiety.

But then we know that there's, without that, you have none of the good stress and you have nothing to look forward to. And you're not like, Oh my God, I want this. 

Donna Serdula: Isaiah, you're so right. And I don't think I wasn't even thinking a bit like that, but it is a good thing, [00:05:00] right? To have that stress, that means you're having that electricity.

You're having that fun. You're having those challenges without those challenges. Yeah. Maybe you're sleeping through the night, but life's dull. 

Isaiah Hankel: I listened to another guy, Eric Thomas, that talks about this all the time about people that are get in the zone, like it doesn't matter. He refers to, interview with like Beyonce Knowles or something else where it's like, when they were writing, they're probably like, I'm sleeping like four hours.

I don't have time to sleep like my, my, my, my assistants or whatever at the door at 4 AM. I got to go to this shoot, fly to this place. And they're like, cause this is their moment. Like they have, this is where they can do all this stuff. And I think a lot of people focus too heavily.

Especially as they start to get an upward climb to peaking, they're like, I gotta, let me, what am I missing from my life? I got to add in some of this kind of self care. I got to add in, I'm not doing enough relationships and I'm doing like, they're right there about to really just take off and skyrocket the stuff they say they always want.

Something's wrong. Like I'm too anxious. I'm waking up in the middle of the night. I'm doing this. So anyway there's two ways to look at it, yeah, [00:06:00] 

Donna Serdula: absolutely. 

I think, for me, I love talking to executives. Like those are the people that I get excited over, but I really also love those professionals who want to transition to that.

They want to up level. And so to me, it's those two those are the areas that I love. It's those who are professionals who are saying, I want more, I want more out of my life. I'm not happy. Just going. Just. checking in and checking out, like I really want, I want to do something. I love that.

And I love those who are doing something, those who are in that leadership position, who are now looking back and saying, how can I empower? How can I help? So those are the two areas that I really love. And that gets me excited. And when we were chatting earlier in terms of, who's the target audience and what is this really about?

I keep coming back to and you said it as well [00:07:00] it's taking control of your career and empowering people. Like I really feel that in, that is important. And when I look back at my own life, when I was in corporate, I didn't have any mentor. I didn't have anyone telling me, oh, you should always be looking at that next position.

You should be looking at having a career vision for yourself, and like really think that. Let. I didn't even know that was possible. And I think there's a lot of people who have no idea how to steer their career. And so steer your career. But, I think there's something there and I think that fits really well because you're teaching people how to steer their career, how to pivot, how to change, how to level up, how to do something different, right?

It's taking control. And for me that's true as well. It's like, how can we get people

To not be under the thumb of the man? 

Isaiah Hankel: Some more. So [00:08:00] there's also like a breaking free component having more. Self more autonomy despite having to work for somebody is what you're saying. 

Donna Serdula: Yeah. Because I think there's some people who they work for someone and they're taking the toxicity. They're taking the, because they feel that they have to. It's Oh, this is part of work, but I think you can still have a lot of freedom and work for someone if you're empowered and you know what you bring to the table and you're negotiating and you're advocating for yourself.

That to me is that's a big difference. 

Isaiah Hankel: I say, what you're saying is interesting to me. Because I don't know if I believe that today and I'll tell you why, okay, tell me no, and I know, but you're right in a sense. I don't think I think that if anybody just works for somebody. Even if it's not a toxic environment, that is going to be very limiting today.

And because of, and you've said this in previous episodes, like just corporations and stuff, they're not set [00:09:00] up like that. They're not loyal for 20, 30 years. They can't be, cause it's so profit driven and just the way economics is, and it's been financialized, which you could go into. So the only way to really secure yourself is to do something autonomously.

And, people call it a side hustle, whatever else, but I don't think that's very executive level. I really think for executive level, it comes down to some type of consulting or coaching. And that's why I've always been big on that because I really think, and it doesn't matter if it's career coaching or other types of consulting, there's, I think the 

Donna Serdula: fractional is exploding right now, 

Isaiah Hankel: whatever you are, like whatever you are, And you're whatever your high barrier to entry skills are that got you to the executive level, because very likely you're in some high level domain, you're in a segment whether it's the S and P, 500 sectors and industries or some other way you want to define it.

You're high level. Somebody else wants to be at that level. Somebody else wants to learn what you have, whether it's other small businesses, whether it's other people that want to have the job that you have. So the only way to feel a sense of empowerment and freedom. And to really [00:10:00] take control is to build something of your own.

And like, when I was in, I used to write about this all the time. I haven't written about it in 10 years. Like, when I was in grad school, I thought I was dying. I was having an existential crisis. Cause you can't, I couldn't get out. There's no, it's not like getting an MD or these other things where you, It's your fourth year you've graduated.

Basically you just have a panel of people that decide to let you go. And this is why some PhDs are like 10 years, right? So anyway, so I'm with my personality type, I'm like I'm gonna die here. Like I'm gonna be here forever. So the only thing that saved me was I started, I read the four hour work week and I was like, a blog?

What's that? And I started writing a blog while I was still in school, really saved my life because it gave me something that I could control. My sense of autonomy and something that I could build and it gave me hope again and it gave me, I was having like serious health issues like I was having, kidney problems from stress, all this kind of stuff.

Because I think if you, nothing is worse than a human who feels like they have no control over their life. There's every study says this, there's better outcomes for anything you face. [00:11:00] When you feel a sense of control or you find the things you can control your circle of influence. You did this you wouldn't be doing this.

I wouldn't be doing this. If we didn't have that exact same epiphany of I need to take control of something. Nobody's going to give me control. Nobody's going to give me permission. So I'm going to build this thing over here, whatever it is, while I'm dealing with this over here. And then whether or not they decide to.

Do it full time is irrelevant. 

Donna Serdula: I hear you. And I do believe it. I believe that you're absolutely correct. I just struggle believing that the vast majority of people can do it because it's so hard and it's so all consuming. And so because of that. So it's being healthy. That's 

Isaiah Hankel: true too. Would you say that to somebody who needs to eat healthy or most people are actually very unhealthy.

We just need to start telling people how to eat unhealthy because they're never [00:12:00] gonna be healthy. I'm not trying , I'm trying to get it too like that. I 

Donna Serdula: hear you. I just, yeah.

There are certain people who can do it. 

No one: Yeah. 

Donna Serdula: I don't know if healthy and career autonomy are necessarily one-to-one I want people to go out on their own. I'm with you, I'm with you on that. That truly is the best way. It's the hardest way 

Isaiah Hankel: for sure, 

Donna Serdula: but I also know like where I am in my life now versus when I started.

So when I started, I was 35.

I think I'm 30. I think I was 35 ish somewhere around there. 34 35 wasn't married. Didn't clearly didn't have any kids. I was free as a bird. And I had my epiphany, I'm going to start my own business. I'm going to help people embrace technology. I'm going to help people embrace social media. I'm going to create websites and I'm going to, bizarrely as it is, I'm going to write LinkedIn profiles for people [00:13:00] because they can't write about themselves.

Now of all of the things that was the one that truly like, Exploded on me at the time. It was one of, a couple of things. Isaiah, that's all I did. I ate and I breathed and I slept and I washed and linked in. That was my life. And that's all I did. For at least two years before I started to make money from it.

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. 

Donna Serdula: So to me, then for me right now, I have a husband, I've got kids, I've got a mortgage. I've got so much more. It's just, I don't know how plausible it is. For people to do that to break out on their own. Now maybe they can do side gigs. It would, it's hard, but I think maybe, you can help people to do that.

For those who can I want them to, but those who are, they're in that box. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. 

Donna Serdula: How can I [00:14:00] help you empower yourself and take control in the situation that you are? Does that make sense? 

Isaiah Hankel: Does and I agree so I had no means and I don't even recommend this for everybody to go out on your own.

I do think you have to build something on your own on the side, but I've also learned that not everybody's. Like me, like other people, I certainly don't have it figured out, I've any path you take is going to have different pains. But I do believe you have to carve something else out that can be your own on your own.

Now, some, for some people, it can just be a hobby. So let's say you're working in corporate. You can consult on the side and have something of your own. It's just going to make you more value to corporate, no matter what they say. Yeah, sure. You might have to drop a non compete or whatever else.

And you might have certain things in contractually to take care of, but I'm not talking about even having the goal of breaking out on your own. So maybe consulting on the side, having something of your own. For some people it's philanthropy. That gives them something of their own that they have that separate.

And gives them that [00:15:00] sense of empowerment and motivation, but other people, it can seriously just be golf. It can be other things too. 

Donna Serdula: I also, as you're saying this, Isaiah, I had this idea, this thought in some ways, I'm always talking about a personal brand and developing that personal brand.

Isn't it almost the same that what we're talking about? It's recognizing who you are, what you do, what you represent. Knowing your value, right? Because it's not enough just to say, let's have a brand. Everyone has a brand, but like really develop something that's specific. And it is something that you can, if you do it well and you become known and you become depended upon, and you become that person that when a person thinks, Oh, I'm thinking of Isaiah, whatever that is, then you could monetize it.

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. And monetize or not, I think The professional branding point will help you in your career either way. And this can get into other topics we've talked about, even on a quantitative level. So there was, [00:16:00] I will have to find this article, but it was shocking cause we've talked a lot about AI and how it looks at things.

And so we're like you got to talk about hobbies. I know you do this, like you got to talk about things that you do because it makes you well rounded, it humanizes you, but even more than that, this, the article that I read, companies are feeding thousands of past resumes into their AI to see.

What are the common denominators for their high performers? This AI found without the employers even knowing it because it's all these machine learning algorithms found that anyone who did baseball or softball was a high performer. And so it automatically started screening out screening for resumes that had a baseball or softball sport listed on it as a hobby or something they've done in the past and putting them on the hiring manager's desk.

And it wasn't until like much later, the hiring managers even knew this was happening. So again, all these things are connected. So we were one, one thing that's been out in a lot of articles too, is How there's this subset, there was a [00:17:00] survey. We'll have to link this article to the show notes too.

That said, I don't know, it was like 50 percent of candidates are concerned about not having enough skills. 18 are concerned about having too many being overqualified. This is something like for executives that they're going to face more. So how do you, what was one of the ways to compensate for that is to humanize yourself, to have this professional brand, to have something else going on, to have, hobbies, things you're doing on the side, other things like a lot of people that I talk to, I don't know if you're the same.

They think, Oh no, I got to show just this one thing. But that can be too narrow 

Donna Serdula: And, with AI, I think what's going to really different differentiate people is that humanity it's being that human. 

No one: And 

Donna Serdula: maybe it's, if it's not baseball or softball, it's just saying, Hey, I'm real. I've got a life outside.

I think they're going to become hungry for that because that's going to be a differentiator between what who cares and who doesn't care. 

You had said something there that, that rang a bell for me. When people say they're overqualified, [00:18:00] do you believe that or is that just an excuse because they're not a fit?

Isaiah Hankel: I think there's three or four key reasons. This article just came out in Forbes that nailed every single reason. And I only know this because I was just I was looking them up earlier the show, but it said, one reason is they literally don't even know what box to put you in.

So they'll just say it as an excuse that. Can't get them sued. Cause that is a real thing. There are employers that can't say you just don't feel right. They're not going to, they can't say that. They can say you're overqualified. Cause and then there is a self justification part of ourselves is Oh, I just had too many skills.

Like it's soothing. Then you're not good enough. So I think there's that, but I think mainly, yeah, what you said is the biggest reason, like you just didn't position yourself for this role. You didn't speak their language. We see it with like high level academics. Cause they're talking about academic jargon way up here in the hiring managers, like no idea what this means.

You're clearly overqualified, but somehow [00:19:00] you don't have enough skills either. Like you don't have enough experience at the same time, but yeah, so I'd think, I think that's it quite a bit and or they're afraid you're a flight risk. If they think, and you want to speak to executives, right?

If there's somebody up here and they're coming down the pyramid, they're going to, and they haven't explained that rationale, like if you're going to get hired at a Starbucks floor position, I'm like. Donna, why are you doing this? Like you're going to leave immediately. There's no certainty.

You're going to hurt my two year retention rate. Not going to happen. So I think that's another reason too. 

Donna Serdula: Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I also think, overqualified, maybe one, are you positioning yourself for the right role? Like you said, 

Are you coming down too low?

But at the other part, I do think we're seeing a lot of Gen X who are at that point, I had a client contact me just the other day. He's now a grandfather and he wants to slow down a little bit. He doesn't want to have that, the stress, he's 58 and, and he says, I want to move.

I want to make a [00:20:00] move, but where do I go? And, I was just reading a book where it says you get into your late forties, Actually, they said forties, which seemed young to me, let's go with the late forties and you do start to slow down a little. You really do. You're not pulling those all night gigs, you don't have that the same because life changes too, the brain changes.

And what you have to do is you have to start to pivot your own career because most people who are. Okay. Thank you. 58, you don't want that, that really high velocity stuff going on. I don't think so. Maybe some do, God bless you, but it's almost, you have to start to position yourself and change your career.

To be seen as the mentor, to be seen as the trainer, to be seen as the teacher, to use the knowledge as opposed to the muscle. And that's where my client, that's what we started to talk about was how can we start [00:21:00] to flip and switch your career? So it is more about knowledge versus you're going to pull up your sleeves.

And at the work done, how can we, how can you now become that person who maybe is orchestrating those who are, does that make sense? 

Isaiah Hankel: It does. I am not on board with slowing down as you get older. I'm going to a hundred percent go faster. I think of like the Zig Ziglers. I think of these people that.

They were speaking 50 events per year at the age of 70. So I love that. But I do think you have to get smarter. I think you have to be more of the, the matriarch or the patriarch or whatever and like the more the sage and you have to get people underneath. That's exactly 

Donna Serdula: what I'm saying.

Isaiah Hankel: We're on 

Donna Serdula: the same space. Yeah. 

Isaiah Hankel: I love people in the entertainment industry, for example, that used to be. Like the singers, and then they became the producers or the people that used to be actors. And I just say this because it's more visible to a lot of people that used, that became directors. And then what even beyond that and became producers, and now they're just making the high level decisions.

And so they kept well, while other [00:22:00] people just kept acting, they never went up and the other people just kept trying to sing and never went up. And then you see these people, how do they become like the, more iconic in terms of the business space. There's a lot of names out there that have a hundred million billion dollar brands because they parlayed up like that.

So yeah, so I think you have to make that pivot. I wouldn't necessarily say go down to, okay, I'm late forties. I want to just take a part time job doing some consulting on the side. I actually think there's a responsibility to like yourself, to really like you've made it to that level. There's a bigger level.

And 

Donna Serdula: yeah. But I think the difference is, there are it's, do you want to go strategic or do you want to be more tactical and it's the idea of you don't have to necessarily be the person who's Burning the midnight oil, but you could be the one that's envisioning it. And that's more of it.

Cause I, I hear you. I, and I certainly [00:23:00] don't want it to be like, Oh, you're old checkout. Definitely not that. But I'm, what I'm saying is let's use the elevator and go up a floor. 

Isaiah Hankel: And get people bring in. Yeah, you got to bring in youth and young talent and you have to do that.

You really do. And if you, you look at anyone who does this effectively, any business, academia, they just keep bringing in the new students that research, that's something that I know it's not going to be. It's not going to be any different though, in a business you bring in interns every year.

You bring in those interns, you learn things from them. You bring in those grad students, you learn things from them and then it keeps going up. So you can't stay at that level forever. Like you couldn't, you can't keep doing what a grad student's doing. You can't do what an intern's doing.

Like you have to go up here and then teach more and more subordinates how to do it. 

Donna Serdula: For sure. Yeah. You'll burn out anyway. It's hard work. It's not easy. 

Isaiah Hankel: Burning out and burning out the biggest thing for that is. You lose connection with the why, like, why am I doing this? If I'm in the same, people have a real need for growth.

Like you think about different [00:24:00] needs. And everybody has a different category of this, like whether it's Maslow's hierarchy, Tony Robbins has six needs, like there's all kinds of stuff. But the one that we tend to have is growth. And as soon as you feel like you're not growing anymore, that's when people tend to have that existential crisis and they feel burnt out.

Like nothing's mattering. They're not making, it doesn't make a difference what they do. They're still at the same level. There's no growth. 

Donna Serdula: And that was when my phone would ring and I would hear from someone who'd say, it would say, I need my profile done. I need my resume done because it's time.

I'm no longer challenged and I'm no longer growing. And To me, that type of a person is that person who is steering their career who feels that they have the freedom and the mobility and they're empowered to change. And I love that. I just wish more people experienced that, what is it?

They allow themselves. To reframe and change. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah, I think some people [00:25:00] want growth. Professionally, they're like, I'm not doing anything here. They want growth in terms of compensation. Let's just say that's an obvious 1. that's easy to measure. It's like something like, I just can't I need growth in this area.

And everybody has different internal thresholds. If they're once they go below their threshold, it'll finally trigger action and you and as. Consultants or coaches that in people like what made that shift they just went below their threshold for some people. It's work life balance Because they just are like, I am no longer seeing my kids or I went from an hour with my kids a day to 15 minutes.

And so they went below their threshold, something internally and their belief system, how they grew up, whatever a lot of people don't even know what their thresholds are. Defining those can be useful, but I went below that Donna, I need help because I got to get into a job with more work life balance.

Whatever they want to grow in or whatever they need to get back up to their threshold. It's going to be different for people, but that's needing to grow back above their threshold. Whether it's a new threshold or an old threshold seems to be the trigger. 

Donna Serdula: It's almost it's what Tony Robbins says about [00:26:00] procrastination.

It's you start to act when the pain of not doing it becomes worse than the pain of doing it. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Moderate pain is the worst enemy. It's and I know you've experienced this. You're talking to somebody and they're just like in moderate pain and they're like app. They're like, I really am not happy, but I'm comfortable enough to where I'm not going to take action.

Whereas you get somebody who's Never again. I'm never experiencing this. I'm never going to be talked to this again. I'm never going to like when they have that intense pain. That's when people change. But how do you ratchet up that pain on yourself without actually going through the adversity?

Figure that out and you figured everything out. 

Donna Serdula: I think that's the next course, right? 

Figure out how to create that pain within yourself. 

Isaiah Hankel: What what for you, so you're, you easily classified an executive. What is the vision for you that gets you excited? You talked about changing from doing, ultimate freedom, doing it on your own eat, sleeping this to now, family mortgage, all these different things established platform.

So what's the [00:27:00] new what do you vision for yourself? What gets you excited as far as the next step for your. Self, your brand, what you want to do on the side. 

Donna Serdula: That's a good question, Isaiah is it's funny for us, right? We sit in a situation where we're talking to people, we're telling them they need a career vision.

They need to be empowered and then turn the tables. Where do I see myself? Where do I want to go? No one asks, but I will say this, I really do feel that for me it's, it is it's, so this is interesting. 

Isaiah Hankel: Don't say serving. Don't say serving others. It's got to be something for you. 

Donna Serdula: No, you touched upon something.

I was listening to everyone's talking about Taylor Swift. And like how huge, I don't know. I couldn't name a single song. I don't know anything about these people. I've, I have my pop culture knowledge, like pretty much ends at the year 2000. Okay. That's where I [00:28:00] checked out, but everyone's talking about her.

And I was watching a reel on Instagram. It was Gary Vaynerchuk and he was talking about what did she do? to get to the level that she is. And he says that it's the depth of her marketing that, of what she didn't just try to be everything to everybody, but she found her niche and she, she deeply marketed herself.

And that I've found. Fascinating. Fascinating. I think, Isaiah, I think you've done that with your audience. I think that you've created really strong relationships with your audience, your clients, and you're always there for them and they, and you're riding with them through their career. And I love that.

That's at least from an outsider's perspective. That's what I see you doing. And I feel that is what I need to do better. At, and that is more of the vision that I'm creating for myself is looking at vision board [00:29:00] media and saying this it's no longer about the one offs. It's no longer about everybody, but it's really about saying who is that?

Who is that avatar? Who is that client? And how can we stay with them? How can we help them through their career? How can we become more of that agency that provides a broader, deeper experience? 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. 

Donna Serdula: So that's where my brain has been of late. That's the future that I'm trying to manifest.

Isaiah Hankel: That's really cool. I it's funny that you say that cause I read an article and it's funny you have these things that change your perspective. I read an article on Taylor Swift 10 years ago, it's 10 years ago. I was traveling all the time speaking to these universities and I was in an airport, I read this article and it talked about the same kind of thing.

Like how did she, it was right when she, Maybe it was almost 10 years. It's right when she crossed over to pop out of country because he was course was just country when she started and but she. She was country for 10, 11 years. She [00:30:00] dominated that niche for 10 to 11, probably more not. That's not, that's just counting the time where she was actually a star.

Like before that it could have been, it could have been 15, 20 years. However young she was. And then she crossed over. And so at the time I was like, Oh my God, I got to go out there and I got to get all these segments. Okay. So I'm helping these people now. I got to go help these types of people. And I want to be.

I want to be helping these people. I want to be everybody. Like I wanted to cross over, like we talked about the wall. I wanted to be all these different segments. And I tried that. Every one of them failed, early on. Like I'm talking like my first year, first couple of years. And then I read this article and changed my perspective.

I was like, no, I'm going to, I'm going to do this. For these people, this specific niche, maybe for 10 or 20 years before I'm able to help anybody else. 

Donna Serdula: Yeah. 

Isaiah Hankel: And I just came to that. I'm like, obviously if, because this wasn't a small unsuccessful person, this is somebody who's, one of the articles about how, she's the most successful as far as at least money goes or brand goes forever.

Yeah, it's a great example. It's a good, it's a good example. [00:31:00] It's a good teaching point because I think a lot of people diversify, dilute themselves way too early and they don't go, they don't go deep enough. 

Donna Serdula: I think that's true for just regular professionals. Know your target, know what you're aiming for.

Don't spray and pray, niche in, have that vision, know what you're good at. And that's what people want to hire. 

Isaiah Hankel: High barrier to entry skills are still going to be the ones that will have the lasting power. You definitely need to be well rounded. So hopefully, nothing should ever be confused.

Like you have to have those high barrier to entry skills. If you want to differentiate, sure. Be well rounded, be personable, but that doesn't that's only if you have the deep knowledge, like the specialized skill. Good talk today. Always 

Donna Serdula: awesome talking to you. I love this. 

Isaiah Hankel: Me too. 

You