Career Leadership: Navigating Your Path to the C-Suite === Introduction and Catching Up --- ​ [00:00:00] Donna Serdula: Yeah, we're just gonna, just like, let's just start recording because we always get good things before we hit record. Isn't that crazy? So how Isaiah Hankel: I feel Donna Serdula: So what's going on, Isaiah? I haven't seen you in weeks. I think the last one we did was the show right after, uh, July 4th, so it's been like well over a month. Academic Calendar and School Start Times --- Isaiah Hankel: we're on the academic calendar still. We're starting, we're ready for the new semester. I don't know. School starts pretty, pretty, already started down here. You, I don't know. Do we talk about that? When does it start up, up there later? Donna Serdula: yeah, it, it starts, uh, for where I am, I'm just outside of north of, uh, Philadelphia. And so for my kids, they don't go back until right after Labor Day. We're not, we're not in the August. Uh, start time like some people are. Isaiah Hankel: like the latest in the nation. Okay. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. We're like August 8th, is insane to me. Cause when I grew [00:01:00] up, it was also after Labor Day. So Donna Serdula: Yeah. That's, that seems really early, but I bet you guys get off much sooner than we do. My kids were going to school well into, um, June. Isaiah Hankel: I don't know if it's cause of the heat that they figure August is not like, it's just painful. So they're like, might as well be inside and, uh, it gets, it gets hotter, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: so the, yeah, they get more of may, I guess it would be off. Donna Serdula: Yeah. That would make sense. That would make sense. Summer Existential Crises --- Donna Serdula: But at any rate, so how, otherwise, how, how's your summer going? Isaiah Hankel: It's going well, you know, we, we tend to see a lot of, um, people going through existential crises in summer or when they have time off for, because you have a lot of people, I think people, uh, you know, like higher level professionals, if they don't have a career or. Things aren't happening as in a structured fashion. You have a lot of time your very active mind to sit around. And so, you know, we look, work with a lot of, you know, PhDs or their doctors. So what they do is they don't have all the other undergrads and [00:02:00] everything on the campuses in academia during the summer. there's less structure, less going on, but they still have to go in, you know, every day and do the same thing, but they have all this time, much more time for things to spin. There's less social proof. And so they start asking, we just see a lot more of like, what am I doing with my life? What am I doing with my career? They have more time to explore. Donna Serdula: Yeah. See, I, I feel like it's a little bit different for executives because they take, they take summer and they're off their vacationing. They're focusing in on their family. It's it's right around Labor Day. When their existential crisis hits because they, Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Donna Serdula: they suddenly are like, okay, nose back to the grindstone and suddenly it's like, what am I doing with my, my life is like, is this the path that I want to be on what got me here? Isn't what's going to get me there. And that's when my phone starts to really ring. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. That's [00:03:00] interesting. Hiring Trends and Job Market Insights --- Isaiah Hankel: You know, we've, we've talked about this for almost 10 years now. So we, you know, we have our internal numbers of when these, you know, whether again, it's PhDs or EDDs or MDs, when they get hired the most, the highest month of hiring, it's opposite of what I'm guessing you experience. The highest month of hiring for them is in December. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: the second highest is right in the mid, we call it the mid year hiring bump right around July. Donna Serdula: Right. Isaiah Hankel: look at other metrics of like total hiring, it's almost the inverse of that, where you see hiring like in Jan and Feb because they're trying to fill their teams. For the new year, right? Or you see it in September would Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: mid year. So it's, interesting. And I'm sure every demographic is slightly different, but Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: a lot of people track those trends. Unfortunately. Donna Serdula: No, but I also feel like those trends change quite a bit too, depending upon the market, depending upon election cycles, depending upon other things as well. So the truth is, [00:04:00] and I do say this to my clients, you know, it may be slow in summer, but that doesn't mean you take your foot off the pedal. Isaiah Hankel: Sure. Donna Serdula: I mean, this is the time because people are still hiring. It doesn't matter if, if it's, if the business, you know, if, if the market's bad, if the economy is bad, if it's really slow, there are still people who need people, right? Like, you know, like it's, it's just, it doesn't just stop. You just have to find those opportunities. And when other people let up, that's when you really charge forward. And I think that's when you find things. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: to do both of those things. One, you have to understand what's happening contextually. Job Search Strategies and Career Planning --- Isaiah Hankel: Most people in their job search. Zero contextual awareness, really. Like they, I think they, which I understand because you get into this, uh, it's a very emotional thing. Like I got, usually they're doing it for pressure for one reason or another, not happy or laid off. Or so they don't, they can't zoom out when the brain is [00:05:00] focused like that. I'm like, Oh my God, I got to. Alleviate this pain. It's hard to say, okay, what's going on? Is there an election coming up? Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: what, what job titles are even trending up right now? Like maybe it Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: this job title and now it's called this. A Donna Serdula: Mm hmm. Isaiah Hankel: even know that Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: any research. They don't take a step back and do any strategy, then at the same time, no matter what's happening, contextually, you don't not do anything and say, I'm going to wait. Six months until maybe the hiring market comes back because as we've seen at least the last couple years It's gone down in Donna Serdula: Mm hmm. Isaiah Hankel: openings for over two years now, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: can't wait They're still hiring, but you have to I think I think there's got to have being like an opportunist Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: a good way Like what is where is the opportunity now? Like there was a time when user experience research these types of roles like UX Donna Serdula: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: buzzword. I mean, it's still, uh, I would say it's still buzzworthy, but you know, Donna Serdula: I think cyber security and AI are, like, off the charts. Isaiah Hankel: sure. And, but when can it change, you know, so I think, I think having a eye for that, [00:06:00] uh, is helpful, but Donna Serdula: hmm. Isaiah Hankel: also have to be consistent. You Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: you know, if you're not applying a little, you know, like every day, every week in a job search, it's tough to, I don't know. What do you, I mean, what do you think in terms of strategy? I just don't see a lot of people actually having a job search strategy. Or a career strategy, which is a big part of Donna Serdula: Oh, the career strategy is, I think, the biggest part of all of it, really. Because if you have, if you have a career strategy and you know where you're headed, You have a vision for yourself. And look, it doesn't have to be a hundred percent clear, right? But, but you know, where you want to, what you want to do, how you want to affect change, like the impact that you want to make, you have an idea of, where you want to get to. I don't want to say every day and I don't want to say every month, but you, you really are measuring yourself against and you're saying, am I being challenged? Am I, am I, am I, am I do, am I making [00:07:00] the right, um, changes and I, I doing the right things within the organization. Am I looking at opportunities? Am I, am I stepping up? Am I, am I doing the right things as opposed to I wake up, I go to work, I get my job done. I think a lot of people do that. I think a lot of people do that and they're not thinking of where do I really want to go? And so they're no longer the driver, right? They're just sort of this passenger and they're just, going, landing somewhere. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: they go to work and they just want to move forward, but they don't really, don't know where they're going. So they, I think the problem is actually, it's not so much moving forward because most people are like, okay, am I further in this area than I was yesterday? But most people will, it's called heuristics, right? If you can't answer a tough question, you answer an easier question. The book by Daniel Kahneman, who recently passed away, [00:08:00] won the Nobel prize for behavioral economics was behavioral, maybe regular economics. Anyway, he said, like, if you can't, if your brain can't answer a tougher question, his answer is a simple question. So if your brain can't answer the question, am I actually moving forward in my career, it answers the question of, did I move forward in this project? a little bit further today than I was? So people will feel like, Oh, I moved forward. I finished these projects. I did this, but. They're not actually going like they, they're moving forward, but they could be moving in circles or they could be moving towards something different. Like what is, you know, I guess, what is the, even if you have to do titles, titles aren't everything, but like, what would be like a title or what would be a salary or what would be, there's gotta be metrics. I mean, I'm, I'm much more, you know, metric minded and I think you have to think of some metrics. It's not like you, okay, you want to have change, have an impact, but you can define that. does that look like? Does that mean a certain number of people getting a treatment for something? Are you, you, you publishing something that affects a certain number of people? I don't know. People just, Donna Serdula: Yeah, Isaiah Hankel: start to zero in on a metric, they opt out Donna Serdula: [00:09:00] well, what's that? There's that saying if it's not if it's not measured, it's not managed. So, you know, I think that that plays a lot into that. I, you know, the other part of it. Challenges of Executive Roles --- Donna Serdula: I was talking to, um, a woman yesterday and she was getting into, um, a fractional CMO role. That's what she wanted to do. She wanted to be a fractional CMO. And you know, when I, when I, when I started to say like, why, you know why she said, well, when you get to my level as a CMO, it is super risky. And super volatile. It's it's just she never knows. She's never knows where she's going to be or how long she's going to be at an organization. A new leadership can come in and decimate that executive team. Uh, you know, just a slight misstep. And it's all gone. And she said, she's, she was tired. She was tired of that, that lack of stability. And that's the other thing I thought to [00:10:00] myself, as she was aiming for that. through her career, did she know that that was what it was going to be like? And I don't know if many people recognize what the C suite can be like, and if they really do have that desire for it, , so it's measuring I'm with you there, but I also think it's, it's finding mentors. I think it's networking. I think it's talking to people and hearing about they like about what they do and understanding the good, the bad and the ugly. Isaiah Hankel: Everybody's different. Yeah. I mean, if, if you're, And I also know people that have done fractional work or consulting and they, I talk to them almost every day and these are people with their doctorates, they're like, it's dried up. I can't find clients like I'm chasing. So something, I mean, so pick your poison. What I think the going to be something like, you're going to be, you're going to be playing the politics game. a high level to stay in that C suite or you're going to be playing the politics game to keep and [00:11:00] recruit your own clients, Donna Serdula: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That Isaiah Hankel: the expectation. I was actually talking to somebody this a couple of days ago. I'm like, I'm like, why does everybody. This might sound snarky, but it's not. It's like, why does everybody think they should be a vice president? Like I'll talk to people, zero experience. You know, they've never worked at a, like what, like, like now they don't think there should be this working up and having to deal with any of the challenges. people are like, why can't I just be given, if I could be given a chance to be in charge, I could really do some things I'm like, well, thinks that. Like everybody thinks if they're given the chance, like my ideas are the best, right? If I could just show people and I don't think there's, I don't think it's that there's the same mentality of like, you're, you're going to have to pay a lot of dues and the higher you go, you're actually going to have to eat more crap. You don't eat less crap, the higher you go, you eat, you eat less because you actually have [00:12:00] to, for everybody that you're managing, just as an example, and as well as superiors, like, so you actually get more people beneath you and you still have people above you. So you have, you have to be expert at navigating all of that and usually not doing what you want to do. You're not just saying orders. I don't know if that resonates with you at all, but it's definitely not, you get to a level where it's like, I'm the boss now. get to say whatever I want. If I get up into a high enough level career. And I think a lot of people really that if I could just be given a chance, if I could be in charge, everything would be different. then their disillusioned when nobody will give them that job. wonder why they can't even get a regular job at a regular level, because that's their attitude. Donna Serdula: that resonates. And I'm even remembering, I'm thinking of this, this this client I had years ago. And He, he came to me, he was a, he was in technology, but I mean, just [00:13:00] like, I don't know, technology manager. As part of the process of, you know, the branding and, you know, getting over everything together, I'm like, all right, what are you targeting? He said, CEO. CEO. I'm like, well, all right, I get it. That's a fabulous dream, but what's your next step? Like, what's the practical next step? And he said, CEO, CEO. And I'm like, all right. Um, I don't know if that's doable right now in your career path. And he, he really didn't like the answer. He didn't like the answer. So, so what did I say? I said, um, all right, so you want to be a CEO, buy a company. Or get into sales. That's the fastest route to the C suite. I, right? I mean, what else? What, what other? I think those are the two fastest. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Unless, I mean, unless you're going to go, there's old traditional paths of, you know, MBA specialized knowledge, maybe a couple of [00:14:00] steps into a VP position, and then you might be riding a VP. I mean, if we're talking like fortune 1000 companies, you might be riding a VP position for, Years and years, and then there's a lot of different things to, to get into that, the, the C suite at all, um, mostly political, right? By far, mostly political. And so, I, I, Donna Serdula: connections. Connections. Isaiah Hankel: really. And, and I mean, seriously, it's still, still to this day. So I don't know people, think it's a regular career, like, and this is something I deal with all the time too. People think, okay, if I do all the right things if I want it, it's going to happen, but it's not like that because most of the stuff, when you get to a certain level, it's all about the relationships. You have to be able to do whatever, be willing to do whatever it takes, meet whoever it takes, talk, grease the wheels as in like be, uh, extremely friendly, giving no ego at all. Like if you look at a Donna Serdula: Yeah.[00:15:00] Isaiah Hankel: to those roles, they're very unflappable. I think everybody focuses on like maybe the prototypical old school boss that gets attention that bark barks orders like a CEO, but that's not really, if you look a lot of these executives, they're almost. They're just on, they're just like Teflon. They're on flat. They just Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: you can't, you can't pin anything on them. You don't even know what they're, they're, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: what they want and they're. Donna Serdula: And they're steadfast. I mean, it's nothing is going to, they've got the vision, they're working towards it. Things don't hurt them. They're not afraid of that confrontation and they're able to delegate. It's not like they're taking everything on themselves, but it's, it's a, it's a, it is a, it's a mindset and it's a personality that I don't think everyone has. And there's a, there's a reason for that. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: you might have the hard truth might be it's going to be, you can, anybody can do anything. you'd ever want to take that away from somebody. At least I tried, like I'll never, I'll say. Any goal you want to achieve, it's [00:16:00] like managing any project timelines, matter your budgets, right? Milestones Donna Serdula: Mm hmm. Mm Isaiah Hankel: could take you, you want to be a CEO of a fortune 1000. Maybe it's going to take 20 years from where you are now. What is that next step? I love that, that that's what you said, because most people can do one of the other, they can look one step ahead. Donna Serdula: hmm. Isaiah Hankel: look far ahead Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: can look far ahead and they had this great, grandiose vision for Donna Serdula: Mm hmm. Isaiah Hankel: but they can't look at the next step. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: of person you are, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: like to have bigger goals and look at them, but I know blind spot for me is, but what's the actual next step? Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: to get people on my team that are really good at the next step. It's actually different personality types. Like I like to use Meyer sprigs, like, If you're like an N, Donna Serdula: Mm hmm. Isaiah Hankel: good at imagining where you want to go. If you're an S you see things where they are. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: And so, Donna Serdula: So what, wait, now, what is your, what is your Myers Briggs? I know what I am. Isaiah Hankel: yeah, Donna Serdula: I'm curious if it's the same thing or not. Isaiah Hankel: I bet it's close, but probably not the same. I N T J Donna Serdula: INTJ.[00:17:00] Isaiah Hankel: really? That's hilarious. I have would have, I would have not known that. I would have thought you had been more of a, I mean, uh, extroverted. Donna Serdula: Yeah, I know, most people think that. Most people think that, but I'm not. I'm not at all. Isaiah Hankel: I should have known, cause most people think that of me. Cause I speak. Donna Serdula: Mm hmm. Isaiah Hankel: know, this, like you can, as an introvert, you can speak then you like Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: need time to Donna Serdula: Oh, not only that, it's, I can get on a stage, I can talk to a thousand people, but throw me into a small, like having to walk into a small dinner party. That's when I get, that's when I get the, Isaiah Hankel: I'm the same way. I'm so, and I can do, like, I can talk to small groups all day long behind a computer screen. But yeah, it's, it's something, if it's a small group in person. very, it's just draining. It's not about like, am my, it's like shy. I love the book Quiet by, uh, Susan Kane, if you've ever read this. It's Donna Serdula: No, Isaiah Hankel: the science behind being introverted, where it's not actually, you know, there's, there's [00:18:00] shy introverts and then nons shy introverts, right? So we would be, I'm guessing non shy introverts Donna Serdula: I, I think I would be a shy introvert. I do think shy, but introvert that, that tries very hard to seem like an extrovert. Isaiah Hankel: hide it very well. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. And so I think for me, so anyway, anybody with like, so the n the counterpart, that's the s, right? So. I problem. Like, Hey, this is a great idea. Let's go there. But I've learned usually the person's like, well, okay. You're 1000 steps ahead. This is the first step to make that happen. And then, you know, the way to get to really big things is usually doing a lot of boring things Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: And then you can finally get to that big thing. But I, that's what I love about what you said though, is what is the first step for you? When you challenge people on that, in most cases, you're like, I don't know. And that's Donna Serdula: It's a struggle. Isaiah Hankel: to figure out and then create that plan Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: bigger. [00:19:00] But what else is more important than that? Otherwise you will people, I have multiple conversations per day of people who say, I can't basically to sum it up, I fell into this. I was doing this and I Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: about it, but I fell into this and it, you know, seven, 10 years later, now I'm here like, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: God, it actually scares me. It's good for me to hear. Cause it scares, it's like the ghost of Christmas Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: I hear this. Donna Serdula: See what you just said is something that I've been really playing with, which is so many of my clients want to be that person who doesn't look for a job. Jobs find them. And that's a beautiful thought, isn't it? Like when you hear it, you don't have to look for a job, jobs find you. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Donna Serdula: and that is something that I do in fact, want to provide to my clients. I want that those opportunities to always be there, right? But I want those opportunities to be qualified opportunities, right? I want them to be at the right level. I want them to be along the right [00:20:00] path to that future vision. And, but that, that's the part that people don't think about, right? They just want, they want things to fall in their lap. They just, they don't want to have to look, they don't want to have to think far out. It's just an opportunity. Like, I don't know how I got here. I just sort of like things just landed in my lap and now suddenly I'm here. And so it's, it's almost like two sides of the same coin, right? It's this idea that. opportunity comes and you don't have to work too hard for it. Right. But I think that in itself is, is the issue. You do have to work hard for that opportunity. Isaiah Hankel: And Donna Serdula: It's the Isaiah Hankel: aren't motivated. Donna Serdula: yeah. Isaiah Hankel: unless there's a big painful moment like pain is the best motivator, like to the point where I'll talk to people and if they, if I'm talking to somebody, I always have to uncover the real reason that they're talking to me because most people, and this is where, and I don't think ego is a bad thing. I'm using ego as a, as like a, like a, where we kind of buffer ourselves [00:21:00] from pain. So like I'll ask him, like, so why are you, I just want to get into something better. I want to do this. Yeah. But why are you here talking about it now? Like you've done this for seven years. So what happened? Oh, you know, what do you not like about your current role? No, I like it. It's okay. It's okay. And then I'll ask him a few more questions and finally get to, well, actually I found out I'm gonna be laid off in a month. Why didn't you lead with that? Right. Cause that, cause people will protect themselves from the Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: when they shouldn't, because that pain is your motivation. It's actually why you're doing what you're doing. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: thing in life, I think, is to actually make a career change and do something moving forward before that pain comes. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: don't, they wait till they're laid off. wait till they have an unbearable relationship with some sort of manager at work. They wait till they're actually hate what they do every day, like crisis. And only then will they change. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: you've heard moderate pain is the worst enemy, right? So you have to ratchet up. Somehow you have to ratchet up that pain, stare in the face, do something. [00:22:00] There's a Donna Serdula: It's, Isaiah Hankel: things out there, but do Donna Serdula: What, Isaiah Hankel: yourself. The Importance of Career Leadership --- Donna Serdula: what I love about this is this is truly career leadership. This is truly career leadership because when I started my business and I, you know, we, in the very beginning, you know, writing the LinkedIn profiles, you know, these executives are coming in, they're calling me, I'm talking to them, you know, again, understanding what is your pain point, what's going on. And Um, I did see that there was this, this, this huge delineation, right? There were so many people, you know, I have a feeling there's writing on the wall, I gotta get myself prepared or, oh, everyone there's layoffs are taking place or, oh, I just got laid off. Like that was one pretty big pipe of people coming through. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Donna Serdula: And then there was this smaller pipe and it was, it was these executives. No, they weren't even executives, but they were, they would become executives. I could bet my life on it. And they would say to me, you know, Donna, I've been here for two years and [00:23:00] I've, I've, I've, I've really truly accomplished what I set here to accomplish, or I came here and I'm no longer being challenged. Or I really looked at the situation and I realized there's really no more upward mobility for me here. And they were proactive in I want to really make sure that I'm branding myself for who I am today, not who I was when I got the job. And now I want to find that next level. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Donna Serdula: And to me, those were the people that were such a breath of fresh air because they were doing it controlled. They were doing it with, with their own passion. They were doing, and then they weren't in pain. They didn't need pain. They were just somehow motivated. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Donna Serdula: I don't know what that personality type is. Maybe it's that steadfast CEO who just, you know, has that eye on the vision. But to me, it's how can we, [00:24:00] and I think of this now, it's like, how can I help my, my clients? How can I help people go from being that person who's in that passenger seat and just reactive to that person who is being proactive. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Conclusion and Next Week's Preview --- Isaiah Hankel: Great conversation. Donna Serdula: Always, always fun. I look forward to next week. You