Career Leadership 2024-03-07 Leaper
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[00:00:00] Do do do do do do do! 

Donna Serdula: The trip. So we went to New York city to the today show and my husband was on,

Isaiah Hankel: what do you mean? Was he like on a panel or what? 

Donna Serdula: Yeah. So this is interesting, right? So my husband is a leaper, which means he is a leap day baby. 

Isaiah Hankel: Oh, I see. I see. Okay. Okay. 

Donna Serdula: So the today's show had put out back in like January, they were like we're going to do a, a segment on leapers and we're going to celebrate them in our studio.

So if you're a leaper, visit our website, submit your information and perhaps we will choose you to come into the studio. And that's what we did. So I, we hear this. And I get on to the computer. I check out, the form. And this is something that talks about the power of storytelling, right?

And jumping on an opportunity as [00:01:00] fast as you can, because as soon as they said it, within a day or two, I'm filling the form out. And I'm not just filling it out. I'm really sitting there thinking, where's the humanity here? Where's the humor in this? Where's the story and the experience.

And I crafted stories to all of the questions that they ask using, experiences and things that would, made me chuckle almost immediately within like just a few days, we got a email from the producer and the producer said, yeah, We loved it. Get jump on a zoom call. They interviewed him and out of 700 people, he was one of 20 that were invited to the studio.

Isaiah Hankel: Wow. And they just had a group there and yeah. Talked and said, these are all the, 

Donna Serdula: yeah, they had, yeah they gave cakes to everybody. They interviewed a few, there was like a young girl. They interviewed, there were twins that they interviewed. And then there was a grandfather and son both leapers that they [00:02:00] interviewed.

And so those were the ones that made it onto camera that had, real actual interviews, but he was there. And they brought him out into the plaza. It was great. And so me and the boys, we, we went to the plaza. We were standing out there, like whenever you see the today show, there's all those people out there acting crazy and we were out there and it was bitter cold.

It was bitter cold, but we didn't, we, we ourselves didn't get on camera, unfortunately,

Isaiah Hankel: so cold. Yeah. But that's a once in a lifetime experience. That's really cool. And you got, it was awesome. On. You have the clip of him on stage.

Yeah. You like recorded it or, yeah, I 

Donna Serdula: can send it to you. Yeah. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. I'd love to see that . That's great. Yeah. If 

Donna Serdula: you, and if you visit LinkedIn, if you look, there's pictures, tons of pictures I, we took. Okay. I'll have to see. Yeah. It's slew of 

Isaiah Hankel: them. What I love about that is you have to create.

I always think of it as like deal momentum. Cause when you throw yourself into something, I actually think for me, I think of the first book proposal I did. [00:03:00] And I think of people even just applying for jobs, same thing. Like you can throw yourself into an application. You're excited. You're like, yes, I want to do this.

Your ability to follow through is extremely rare. Think about how many people, and I'm sure you talk to two, that's, I love this job. You're reading a job description. I love this job. This is great. I could see myself doing that. And then they're ready to, they start maybe thinking about, maybe they even start targeting the resume, but then they start smell.

There's this couple of skills there that I don't have. Maybe it's not a good fit. Maybe it's going to be like all the other times. Maybe it's not going to happen. And they totally stopped. They don't even do it. They don't even get it out. Like you have to have a real kind of, and I always notice it in myself now when I started, I'm excited and I'm going and then like halfway through, it's like my brain shifts.

There's a chemical shift. There's a hormonal shift or something where it's like, what am I doing? Is it going to work? I don't know. Like you, and you have to use willpower to drive it through to finish that document. Yeah. And they do it [00:04:00] on purpose because they want to see who's going to finish the document.

And so it's, I don't know. I think. I think things like that, that you have to do, it's a screening process for a reason. 

Donna Serdula: Oh, absolutely. And I've always said, especially with things like cover letters, sometimes it's not even that they're going to read it. They just want to know that you followed the instructions and you did what you were supposed to do.

It's sometimes it's just that in itself. Yeah, it's a screening process. 

Isaiah Hankel: Look at and look what you had to go. Basically, you went through an interview process to get on this show. Like he had to talk to him on a screening call. They have to talk cause they have to know, are we going to let just anybody get in on this set where they're, they could just start freaking out.

Like who knows, right? So they're looking at so many things. Can this person put together sentences? Do these stories make sense? All these things that another person reading it would have to be able to see this is from a human.

These are real stories. It makes sense. And then they have to talk to you. 

Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah, [00:05:00] I coached my husband. I had said, get on that zoom call. You smile so hard. You feel silly, but keep smiling because they're looking for that. And then once we knew that we actually got it, 

Isaiah Hankel: he's, 

Donna Serdula: I said to him, all right, so sweetheart, what are you going to wear?

And he said to me I was thinking my red flannel button down and a pair of jeans. Okay. I said no. That's not going to fly. And we got out the suit, made sure that it was pressed, had him try it on to make sure it looks good. And, but it was those little things. That make a difference.

And in some ways it's dotting the I's and crossing the T's it's saying, you know what? Go a little further, go a little further. You may, in some ways it's almost like a deflection or a protection process where a person says, you know what? I'm going to wear that red flannel shirt because it's they're a dress down office.

But at the same time, [00:06:00] if you do go a little further and you really show that you care, how can that hurt you? 

Isaiah Hankel: I think this is such a good conversation because a lot of, and I can tell you what goes through, even through my mind, I think it goes through anybody's mind is, okay, what difference is it gonna make?

There's not gonna be, it's always this, it's always the second marshmallow, right? , the famous experiment with the kid that can wait for the second marshmallow is much more likely to be successful. So if you can look at a moment like this and actually realize, wait a sec. If being on TV on something like the Today Show.

That has long term potential. So if your husband or you or ever wanted to get on TV again, that can be used as a spot to show whoever it is that you can function on TV. They look for that. I know we've talked about similar books that we've read from, Tim Ferriss or whatever else, but the way that he got onto his first TV show was he went to a Barnes and Noble.

It was like a barrier. There was a book about Barry Bonds when the whole steroid thing was [00:07:00] happening. And he went there the night before the book was to be released. This is when you couldn't get early copies of anything. And basically said he would do whatever he could to get this copy, this book early so that he could get on this new show because he had read it and be able to speak about whatever he'd stood on his head to cartwheels, all this stuff.

They gave him a book the night before when nobody got it from somebody behind the counter. Cause they had the books there in the back. Long story short, he was able to read that before anybody else had it get on the news show. And then that one spot that he had. allowed him to get on all of his future spots from there because it was used as an example.

So just as an example, your husband could take that spot and say, see, I can act normal on the today show. Like I've been. There, and I can function and you could use that and parlay it into any sort of PR in the future. Anyway. So people don't think about that longterm potential of these kinds of rare moments.

And they just think okay, what am I going to get tomorrow? If I do this, like if I put in this extra effort to wear a suit, like what am I going to get tomorrow? 

Donna Serdula: Yeah. And when I looked, like when I looked at the video [00:08:00] afterwards and we recorded it and we're watching it and I turned to him and I said, aren't you glad that you wore the suit?

I said, Aren't you glad because you cut such a nice figure and very few of the other people did, but I do think it makes a difference. And I think it also made a difference in him. The way he stood and held himself in the suit was so much different. Had he just worn a red flannel shirt and a pair of jeans, 

Isaiah Hankel: it's true.

Donna Serdula: But I think if you're presented with an opportunity, And it's something that you want. Grab it with both hands and really Use the power of story, right? And even, this is so true with the career. I was reading a post on LinkedIn and it was, you have to do the drum roll.

You have to be the one that sets yourself up and you're the one that has to say, Hey, what I did was different. What I did was special. What I did was important because it's so easy to say yeah, I just, yeah I led that project [00:09:00] to a successful conclusion. Yes, I did that. I just, it was, no, if you think of it like that, everyone else is going to think of it like that.

It's true. So how can you turn it into something that's important? That's amazing. And recognize that, you do have that value. You really do. And you have to be the one that owns it. 

Isaiah Hankel: What do you say to a person who's you know what, it's just not my personality type. And I don't like those people that are blowhards.

Talk about themselves. I hear that all the time. I hear that all the time. What I say is 

Donna Serdula: this. What I say is this, Isaiah, I say, look, are you lying? You're not lying. You're telling the truth. You're reporting on what occurred. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah, 

Donna Serdula: you are stating it, but state it in a manner that showcases how you did it, why it happened, what the results were and own it.

It doesn't mean to toot that horn doesn't mean that you're a braggart or you're a liar. It means that. You recognize the importance of that moment of that opportunity and you drove it to a successful conclusion. [00:10:00] 

Isaiah Hankel: How does that grab you? It does. I think you have to tell them, number one, that you're not lying or embellishing.

You're just communicating things in a way that show the work that you did, because I'll have those same people tell me like, I know I can do this job. I just don't know why I'm not getting a chance. And then they'll say, Oh, I don't feel, I really don't like the idea of selling myself. You can't think of selling yourself as in you're making up stuff.

Like you're helping your audience make the best, most informed decision possible. So if you're not willing to tell them what you've done in the best possible light. They're never going to draw that conclusion for you. They're never going to see you in the best possible light. And then I try, I try to unpack it by telling, telling them, look, a lot of it's word choice.

If you think of it as selling yourself, it's going to be maybe painful for you because you've been told that's bad. But if you think of it as maybe pitching yourself, maybe explaining yourself, maybe talking about what you did in the first person. Some people can have an easier time with it, but that's one of the biggest things that I see.[00:11:00] 

And, pulling back the layers of you're actually just afraid of rejection. Nobody wants to hear that because they think, no, it's not true, but you're actually holding back because. You're afraid of rejection. That's why, for me and that, when you were writing that application for your husband to get in.

Yeah. I think I've written so many applications. I think of the first book proposal that I wrote everything that I wrote. I was like, Oh, my God, I don't think I can do this because they, they make you say, how many copies do you think you can sell? 

Donna Serdula: Yeah. 

Isaiah Hankel: Who are you going to sell them to?

You got to put all this stuff out there. And you're like, Oh, my God, there's so much pressure. Can I hit these numbers? Can I put this on here? Even what am I doing? So you're taking the best case scenario. You're not taking like the lowest case scenario. You got to take the best case scenario and put it out there.

And so I also say that to, I'm like, you will argue with me all day about why you can't get the job and you'll tell me the worst case scenario. And you're so afraid of getting into a job. That's. Could do, could be a really bad toxic job, but have you considered the best case? And so I say, logically, if you're going to consider the worst case, you got to consider the best [00:12:00] case.

And if you're going to, if you're going to consider the best case, why not put your best case scenario forward of what you could do for that company? What was the best case view? What was the best view of what you did in the past? Not the worst of you, not downplaying everything, but if you had to put in the best light possible, what was that?

And that's just a training. I 

Donna Serdula: also find that. What works for other people, for my clients, and I've coached them to do this is almost separate yourself from this persona and create that job seeker persona who may not be exactly you and maybe doing things that are very uncomfortable for you. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah.

Donna Serdula: See them almost as a separate. aspect. And I do this myself. I do this for myself, when I go on podcasts or if I get up on stage, the, those are not things that I myself am naturally, prone to do. So I separate myself and I think that's live, Presentation Donna versus, introverted, [00:13:00] quiet, would rather read a book Donna.

But I think that's something to do because, when I think about it, I wrote the application for my husband, so he didn't sit down and write it about himself. I wrote it for him. With that said, sit very close, I had a lot to gain as well. And I wanted to do this for him, especially for his birthday.

But at the same time, sometimes it is easier to do it for someone else. So can you. If you're, if you are struggling so much, can you sit there and say, I'm going to write this application. I'm going to do this book proposal, but I'm going to do it with the eyesight that I'm a third person looking in and I'm writing it about this other person.

And sometimes something like that, just a little mindset switch can make a difference. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think it depends on the personality type too. I really like the idea of doing it for someone else. If you're just, especially for a job, it's not that I'm doing this for my family, whether it's your own family and kids or whether it's an extended family you want to take care of, whether it's your goal of generational success, you got to [00:14:00] think about these larger implications, you got to actually add pressure to it.

I think people try to take away pressure. Yeah. And that's why they try to downplay it and say, okay I'm going to take away pressure because if I dress down and if I don't really put myself out there, it's the classical, it's not going to hurt as much and there's less pressure because I didn't because if I go all the way out and get everything that I have, there's a lot of pressure now because I'm giving my best.

And then there's nothing that I could say in my mind. I, I could have all, I could have gone up to here. If I would have gone up to here, I would have done it. So I think you want to, I think you got to train to add pressure. And I think you got to train to say, to train your emotion in yourself.

That makes you feel anxiety or intimidation is actually a sign that you're doing something good and correct. If you see it as, if you see intimidation or fear as a sign that you got to stop and get away and get out of it, something's bad. Then you're going to, you're never going to grow 

Donna Serdula: that, that, that discomfort is growth, right?

That's where you've got to be because otherwise you're in your comfort [00:15:00] zone. We don't want you in the comfort zone. If you want to get outside, if you want to rise up, if you want to elevate, if you want to level up, the only way to do that is to get outside of that comfort zone and you've got to exist within that discomfort 

Isaiah Hankel: and clarity can help a lot, clarity helps people grow.

I think a lot of people just don't have any clarity. It's if you're about to take a test. And you haven't studied, you feel very anxious, but if you study and write down all your notes and everything else, you suddenly feel better. So if you're going into an interview, I'm always like, okay, have you created a list of like 30 reasons why you're the best fit for the job?

Have you created a list of like 30 reasons why you really want to work at that company? And not even just for job searching, but if you, like you wrote down all these stories, like in detail, and you probably felt great of I have a great case here. I just built an incredible case for my husband.

And so a lot of people never build a case. And so they feel uncomfortable and easy because they haven't built a case for themself and they have no belief. Like you, if you build a case for yourself on anything, you can create a belief and belief is really what's going to give you the certainty that you need to present yourself.

Donna Serdula: You're [00:16:00] speaking of Tim Ferriss. He has this fabulous quote about how most people aim for mediocrity. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. 

Donna Serdula: And because of that, it's the most crowded of levels in the world in life, in reality. And that it's those people that really go high. They go so far into the stratosphere that they are dreaming so big.

insanely huge, that there are few people who do that. And for that reason, it's actually easier because it's less crowded. Most people are like, ah, you know what? Let me wear that red flannel shirt. Let me just put a little bit of effort into it. Why should I bother? Or let me aim low because I know I'll hit it.

Most people are aiming low. So aim higher and you might find that it's actually easier to hit that target because no one else is hitting it. 

Isaiah Hankel: It's true. And the higher you go, the more that it's the case. People have a hard time, I think too, with the [00:17:00] people, like every time you go up a level, there is, there's people below and you got half of them, they're gonna, maybe it's still quite about the three thirds, right?

A third of them will support you, even if they don't know you, cause they just like to see somebody accomplishing something. Third and neutral, they're agnostic. Third, Are gonna hate on you hard as they possibly can because they hate you going up a level So I think a lot of people hate that too. Like they're like, okay It's easy to be down at this level kind of looking up, maybe being online saying some things, some little passive aggressive things or whatever else to people that are above.

And the reason I bring this up is because I really think that a lot of people don't put themselves out there because of that, especially today, because it's so pervasive. They won't put the application in. They won't go on the show. They won't put it in their app. They won't talk on LinkedIn. They won't reach out.

They won't post stuff on LinkedIn about where they want to go because they're afraid of the reaction of people saying who does this person think they are or some person who's contrarian for no reason that just wants to get on. Every single. [00:18:00] Thing that somebody else does and just says, yeah, but this actually, one of those people I'm saying it because I don't think people talk about it enough. Like those, 

Donna Serdula: yeah. 

Isaiah Hankel: If you don't address that in yourself at number one and say, okay, I'm never going to be that kind of person. I'm always going to be supportive of anyone accomplishing something. If you become that kind of person, then number one, you're going to attract more of those people to you, but you're also going to be able to let go of this fear of having.

Trolls are negative people or naysayers hold you back. 

Donna Serdula: And the other thing though, here is we also have to embrace those haters, right? Because you haven't made it until someone hates you. But it's hard. It's hard. But at the same time, I think it's, you're always going to, you're going to get those people. They're always there. They're little gadflies. Oh, it looks like you're trying too hard. Oh, you gotta then say it looks like it, why should I listen to you?

It doesn't look like you're trying at all. Where's that getting you, right? Yeah, but it's one of [00:19:00] those things I think for, for people, put on your blinders. Yeah. Keep your eye on the prize. Have the vision. Have the vision first. Then put on the blinders. Work towards it. Recognize the things that you've done.

Wrap them in stories. Don't be afraid. Don't poo yourself. Oh, I'm bragging. No, you're telling your story and, aim high. It's a little less. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. I think you have to counterbalance all the negativity out there with extreme belief in yourself and it doesn't have to be loud. It can be in your own way, your own personality, but you have to nurture and work on every day.

Believe that belief in yourself because that's where energy will come from because people won't do things that they're not congruent with, right? So if you don't believe in yourself, you're not going to be congruent. That you actually think you deserve the job. You don't believe it. 

Donna Serdula: Yeah. 

Isaiah Hankel: So if you don't believe you just, of course, you're not going to get the job.

If you don't believe you should be on the today show, of course, you're not going to be. If you don't believe you should have a book, you're not going to be. So you have to really nurture [00:20:00] that and build that up. There's a great book that I've read. One of the best books I've ever read. Ton of science.

It's just called the confident mind. It's this guy who worked at I don't know. He was there, I think for decades, worked with a lot of top athletes at West Point. Did all the athletic training at West Point, but he was in West Point was one of the first to hire one of these people that worked. On the psychology of winning.

So yeah, it's called the confident mind. It talks about, he worked with a lot of different athletes, including Peyton Manning's brother, 

Donna Serdula: Eli. 

Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. I worked with Eli Manning before he won the super bowl and did all this different stuff. And basically he just talks about how it's a relentless daily pursuit of what you enjoy.

I always think about that famous skater that was that Olympic skater that would do the skating races. Oh, And he choked like two Olympics in a row, and then he finally won the gold and he was doing a race that he hated. He just hated it. And he worked with this other psychologist that just had him right at the top of this, [00:21:00] his journal every day.

I forget it was like a 2000 meter. Maybe I love the 2000 meter. He hated us. He wrote this. I love the 2000 meter after a month and they recorded his journals afterwards. And after a couple of months, he started, he's I hate it. I took a couple of months. You know what? I don't really mind the 2000 meter that much anymore.

And then he got, and then he started loving it. And then it's the first time that he won. He did this perfect race. Anyway, I'll have to look it up. It's this famous story, but I think the psychologist was something lore. And all I'm saying by that is if you can build belief very simply, can you write something down?

Like I deserve this job. Yeah. I believe in myself in this. I can I can learn any skill that I don't have. Cause I'm sure you hear that a lot too. Like absolutely. Yeah. Anyway, so I think building that belief system to get, because not everybody is going to be where, you are able to just write down those stories and really go after it, but they can slowly build that up over time.

Donna Serdula: It's, I love the idea of becoming congruent. I think there's a lot of manifestation and [00:22:00] visualization that goes into it. And sometimes it's just even pretending, right? Pretending until faking it until you make it, there's, I think it's a little bit of all of those things. 

Isaiah Hankel: And I think the fake it is a good way to say it because people will feel like the imposter syndrome is the big phrase today.

But yeah, so if you feel like an imposter, as soon as you realize that's never going to go away. Like soon as you, I'm sure you've had, right before I step on stage, sometimes a little thought will come into my head. Like, why are these people listening to me? I don't understand. But you go out, you just do it anyway.

So I think that's what the fake it before you make it means is even if you feel like you're faking it, you just do it. Yeah. Your skill level increases. 

Donna Serdula: Everybody feels that way. It's almost, it's, I really think you take the most confident person and you say, look, do you always feel confident?

Do you sometimes feel like, what am I doing here? They're going to tell you. I do. Everyone feels that way. Everyone does, but you have to overcome it. You have to just say, yeah, that's just a silly, it's a silly little voice in my brain and [00:23:00] I'm choosing to ignore it. I'm choosing to push it to the side. I'm choosing to put my blinders on.

And you keep moving forward. 

Isaiah Hankel: You build tools. 

Donna Serdula: Isaiah as always. 

Isaiah Hankel: Thank you. 

Donna Serdula: Fabulous conversation. Thank you so much. 

Isaiah Hankel: Thank you, Donna.

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