4th of July Special: Effort, Perception, and Career Success === Introduction and 4th of July Greetings --- ​[00:00:00] Donna Serdula: Happy 4th of July. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Happy fourth. You're all suited up. You're Donna Serdula: Oh, yeah. I'm also wearing pajama bottoms, so like, , let's, Isaiah Hankel: That's Donna Serdula: let's level set this. Uh, Dressing Up for Success --- Isaiah Hankel: I love watching, uh, Mr. Wonderful from Shark Tank whenever he does interviews. Cause he always, he does a split screen whenever he does an interview. And it shows him on the interview, like, you know, the, the typical headshot. And then he's always wearing pink, uh, slippers or thongs. And then like, uh, pink pajama bottoms. Donna Serdula: I I, oh God. I, I haven't noticed that. I haven't seen that. But that's, that's, that's. basically me most of most of the day. I'm always dressed really well from the waist up and I always have, um, like blazers ready to go to slip in and Isaiah Hankel: I, uh, I used to do that. And then [00:01:00] I don't anymore because. This is funny because you, I guess you teach what you learn on your own from mistakes, but I, uh, I did an interview. One of my first interviews, I don't know, 2012, I was changing jobs and it was a video interview for a job in Germany. And I'm given the, it was a video interview. Like they were, cause I, they didn't want to fly me out Donna Serdula: yeah, Isaiah Hankel: So way back then, I don't even know what they used. Probably like of the first ones, Webex or something. Anyway, gave the interview. I just put on, like I had the suit jacket, the tie, everything, but then I just had on shorts and I had to lean over to get something. And Donna Serdula: they could see. Isaiah Hankel: I kidnapped the mesh shorts came up and I'm like, Oh my God, did I just do that? Cause I rehearsed in my mind. going to have to stand up. Everything's fine. But it happened Donna Serdula: Do you think, were you denied the position because of your, your mesh shorts? Isaiah Hankel: I wasn't, but I still am like, never again. I'm always going to have on like, at least, I don't know, khakis or something. So Donna Serdula: I think it's smart. I do think it's [00:02:00] smart to, there, there is something about. My mother used to always say, don't dress for the job you have, dress for the job you want. And, and I think there's a big element of that, that goes right through my business. You know, don't, don't put, you know, have the resume for the next job, have, have the profile for where you want to go. Like there's that, it just, it's so intermingled with me. And, and I do think that when you are dressed, like when you have the makeup. on. Maybe not for the guys, but for the woman. When your hair is done, when you're wearing a nice outfit, you feel better about yourself. You know, Isaiah Hankel: it's scientific fact there. The Psychology of Appearance --- Isaiah Hankel: So I used to write, when I first started doing this, I would just write blogs because it would just allow me to like to read a bunch of stuff and then write about And, uh, I remember looking at all this research on. You know, the physiology and the psychology of it. So people, for example, the first thing that I found, which still blows my mind to this day, if people, if you carry around a heavy [00:03:00] notebook or clip chart, like, and so they tested this even with MDs, so they're like, okay, is this like work for higher, you know, people of higher intelligence, lower intelligence, then even for MDs, if you, the heavier, the clip chart you hold and carry around with you. The more intelligent you are on tests after you carry it around, the higher you score Donna Serdula: that's crazy. Isaiah Hankel: If, if you have a warm cup of tea or something versus a cold glass of something, when you're at networking events, the same people initiated more conversations against all these controls. If you wear a suit, right? Or the corollary to whatever you want to Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: You actually hold yourself to a higher standard. And again, we'll perform better on tests afterwards, like actual logic. Quantitative tests afterwards. So it's truth. It's Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: it's, it's just a fact that people hide from it because it's. It's really just laziness because it's easier to do less, but then I think you also have to have your working memory. if you're a super pro billionaire, you [00:04:00] have like a huge following or what, you know, and you do something like that. It's kind of, it can be quirky or whatever, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: achieved mastery. Like you have the framework, but if you think you're going to do that to be cool, to get to that place, I think that's where people get in trouble. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: to go off on a tangent, I think it's fascinating. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Balancing Professional Attire --- Donna Serdula: But there's, there's also, I was talking to, um, uh, um, uh, a gentleman who is, who's in like the, like a really like developer, highly technical type of, of, uh, position. And he said to me when he's interviewing, he said, you know, if, if a person comes overly dressed. That turns him off. So it's such a balance to, to recognize, like, where are you within that? This is yeah. The culture, the system, you know, yes, you want to look good, but I mean, I went, I was talking to my sister about this the other day. I took my mother to, uh, a reunion. She was a [00:05:00] teacher and the LA one of the last classes that she taught, they just celebrated their 50th anniversary. Class reunion. And they said, we'd like for you, the teacher to come. So I took her it's a, it's a class reunion. Like, and it was at a nice fancy restaurant. I'm thinking, well, if I'm going to take my mother, I better dress nice. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah. Donna Serdula: I show up, I'm so overdressed. It was a little uncomfortable to say the least. I didn't get the memo that everyone was going to wear tie dyes. So here I am in a black dress and heels and everyone is wearing. Isaiah Hankel: though, because so I had one of my first jobs I was working for this, uh, Software company Flojo and I went, you would travel and speak as like an application scientist really travel and speak different groups of people and mainly doctors. But this one, there would be these events you'd go to afterwards, right? Anyway, this one guy told me, I never forgot. He's like, either be the best person Uh, best dressed person there or the worst dressed Donna Serdula: Oh, why? No, why the worst? I can [00:06:00] understand the best, but why the worst? Isaiah Hankel: it's just zigging when people are Donna Serdula: It's okay. Isaiah Hankel: if you, so if everybody's like in black tie and you're the person that's in like a polo or a t shirt or whatever, right. You're going to be the person that like counterculture to cool. It's the Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: out Christmas day, like a horror movie, because they know there's going to be a counterculture. Right. Or they do Donna Serdula: I get it. Isaiah Hankel: on Halloween. They do a fuzzy movie. Right. So Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: I Donna Serdula: mean, I, and I, I felt like, like the spotlight was on me because of the way I was dressed and, and as uncomfortable as it was, I will say this, I would, I prefer to be overdressed than underdressed in that situation. And, and I don't think anyone left going, what was she thinking? I think more, more or less people like, Oh, well, you know, she, she, you know, she brought it all to this reunion. Isaiah Hankel: What, what, what's fascinating about this to me is it's one of these areas where so in the book influence, Like one of the kind [00:07:00] of the, the, the godfather books of, of persuasion and, and what, how people act, which is just, it's all just based on a lot of science on the key things that people do and respond to. It talks about some really interesting experiments. With, you know, wearing like a suit or nice clothes and jaywalking and how many people follow you and then the type of car that you have and how long you can stay at a stoplight before people honk. So if you wear a suit or just really nice and you start crossing the street. Donna Serdula: Mm mm-Hmm. Isaiah Hankel: city where you get fined for it. Like I lived in Germany and you get legit fine. There's cops waiting at the streets. But, but if you fall, even in those countries, if you are wearing a suit and you cross, everybody will follow you. But if you're wearing a raggedy t shirt, whatever, and they tested this with all different types of closings, as the clothing got nicer and nicer, More people would follow the person because they're like, oh, they're and, and it's, it's crazy because most people, reason it's so effective is because people think it's not effective. That's when the best influence happens is they think, okay, I'm not going [00:08:00] to follow somebody cause they're in a suit or have a nice car, but they do, they think they don't, they even might have spite against it, Donna Serdula: Mm. Isaiah Hankel: but they actually end up being influenced by it. Anyway, that's how powerful it is. And then the car one was even more fascinating because it was basically, you had an old beater car and you stayed at a stoplight, it was. Like half a second, the person behind you is honking, but if the car gets nicer and like, it goes all the way up to like a Lamborghini, whatever, people would wait up to six minutes to even honk the horn at a stoplight Donna Serdula: See now I would think that would be opposite. I thought it would be opposite. Isaiah Hankel: but that's why it's so powerful. Donna Serdula: See, I would think that if you're in a Lamborghini and you're stopped at a stop sign and you're waiting and you're waiting, in some ways it's almost, it would be almost fun to honk that horn because , because it's such a safe situation. Isaiah Hankel: You're not the average person. It'd be fun for you to honk the horn, but you have more confidence than most people, right? Most people are not, just most people are not business owners. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: [00:09:00] like that. Kind of like, uh, uh, I guess that. Counterculture, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: majority of the population, like the masses. Just simply don't, and we might even, I would, I would love to see that in a, uh, like a kind of a blind study of you because we think that we would, and maybe, maybe for you it would be, I don't know, like a, like an Audi or a Rolls Royce, but something about it, like they, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: honk and it's just crazy. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Well, there's that assumption. Well, they must, you know, they must know what they're doing. They look like they, you know, they look like they're successful. So clearly they know what they're doing. So maybe there's a reason why they're stopped at that stop sign for so long. Isaiah Hankel: of confidence to, to, to dress nicer, to, to have to, to, and it takes more effort too. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: it's very easy to say. It's most of us want to say, ah, it doesn't matter because it's easier not to get dressed up like getting dressed up more. I read this article about how much time we spend as humans grooming ourselves. And so just from a productivity standpoint, I'm like, Oh my God, we spend so much time grooming ourselves as humans. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: have to put on, and when you get to the level [00:10:00] that, know, like you're at, like matters, like 30, 20 minutes matters in your day when you're scheduling. So if I can spend an extra 20 minutes. Dressing up to here, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: Shaving every day or whatever, right? Whatever it is for any Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: like that takes time. It's a lot of time. It's actually a commitment. It seems like the dumbest thing, but it's a commitment. And Donna Serdula: It, it is a commitment, but I think it's a commitment that's, that's worth it. It, it is. Effort and Overcompensation --- Donna Serdula: I, so I, one of, one of my pet peeves is with the, the LinkedIn profile branding, I would have people, they would say, Oh , Donna, I love the profile. I love what you've done. I mean, I, I look amazing, but you know, this person. Who I work with said to me, it looks like I'm trying too hard. It looks like I'm trying too hard. Now we both are very well versed in that. Just like last week, the crab pulling person back, yeah, pulling the crab back into the hot water. Um, and, [00:11:00] and, and I used to say, well, do they look like they're trying at all? Like, is that somehow better? Is that somehow better to look like you're not trying at all than to look like, and maybe you're not even looking like you're trying too hard. Maybe it just looks like you're trying. And that's a good thing. Right? Right. Isaiah Hankel: I think so. And people will come up with all kinds of things. They'll call you elitist, whatever else. I'm like, yeah, well, I want to go for, you know, I'm trying to increase my standards, not lower my standards. And I think also people, they, they see something that a billionaire does or whatever else, I'm like, Oh, that's how you get to that level. You dress like in t shirts and you say whatever you want, like, because that's how you can get to whatever your level of, of your field is. It's like, no, no, you have to compensate. Donna Serdula: Mhm. Isaiah Hankel: oh, you're overcompensating. You need to overcompensate because you haven't accomplished anything. You have done nothing. So you Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: Like, seriously, like that, that for me, I'm like, I have to overcomp, when I was even right now, like I need to dress nicer than somebody that's way up here that I'm chasing because I'm compensating. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: [00:12:00] never tell, uh, let's say. You know, people love to watch sports movies. You Donna Serdula: Mhm. Isaiah Hankel: an underdog who hasn't achieved greatness. Like, you're overcompensating because you're doing two a days, like you're training to like, stop training the way to get there. That's what most of the people, even in our field, Donna Serdula: Mhm. Isaiah Hankel: do right now, they're like, do less, achieve more. Don't try too hard. If you let it come to you, it will come, but I'm like, you need to, you actually need to do some overcompensation. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: you, you, you, you're not there yet. And Donna Serdula: Mhm. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: get there is by doing the extra training that other people aren't doing. Donna Serdula: Yeah, it's, it's so true. I mean, and actually there's, there's that one, um, uh, in unleash the giant within the Tony Robbins, the, the original one, Isaiah Hankel: the originator. Donna Serdula: the original one. And, and he had said how the way he got started speaking was he spoke three times a day. Anywhere, wherever he could go, he was showing up to speak. And within one year, he had like 10 years [00:13:00] of experience in speaking. If you just sort of, you know, put it, and, and I think that's so true and, and, but unfortunately people don't want to hear this. No one, no one, no people want to buy the hope and the dream. Oh yeah. You know, it'll just fall in your lap. Oh, you can do nothing and get something. Those are the people you listen to and you want that to be true. I mean, everyone wants that to be true, but unfortunately you gotta work hard. You gotta put in on, you know, put, put, put, put in that effort. It's, it's the only way. Isaiah Hankel: it's true. And there's ways to, then you got to kind of evaluate and you can't take yourself out of the context that you're in. The Grind to Success --- Isaiah Hankel: Like you might see some kid posting things on Tik TOK and have a huge following, but you're like, that's not going to work for you. Like you, like, I say that because a lot of people want to be influencers in like whatever way. It's like, well, what, what would work for you? Like where you might need to do some stuff offline first. Yeah. You might need to [00:14:00] go speak three or four. I know a lot of people that do that, whether it's Tony Robbins, I mean, you could look at Gary Vaynerchuk's, the Grant Cardone's Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: like if you study them, And these are just people in our field, right? But if you study them, they all did that power speaking circuit for a while to really get out there Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: maybe three times for free per day. I think of, uh, you know, Eric Thomas, who's great. Like he would just go to high schools and speak three or four times per day, full on, then becomes one of the biggest speakers in the world. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: I always tell people like, act like you're running for president. Like, do you really, are you really doing everything to be successful? If you went out and just spoke everywhere that you could. Cause I mentioned that, cause Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: people run for president. They go to like an Iowa, like every like Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: like they'll just go and meet as many, and sometimes you have these people that are actually very big names speaking to like 10 people at a time in Iowa. Right. I see this and I'm like, that is the grind. Like if you really want to make whatever it is for you, like you're trying to get hired, even if you're not starting a business or anything, but you're trying to get [00:15:00] hired. you going to every single job fair? Are you going to Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: to meet these companies? Right? Anybody can do stuff online now. If you can't get through online, what are you doing in the real world? So, anyway. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Well, I, you know, I, I remember reading an article years ago back when the four hour work week had, you know, hit its Zenith and the woman who wrote the article said, I want to be very clear that Tim Ferriss is where he is because he did not do a four hour work week. Isaiah Hankel: One of the, it's one of my favorite books of all time to read because that book is so much deeper and philosophical than, uh, it's all about like a mindset that's very different that I think it was 2005 where things shifted where you could do things online. And it was before work from home or anything. So it was so ahead of its time. I will always love that book. But of course, if you read the book, it's right. Like he was making [00:16:00] 80, 000 a month, grinding it out for years in a supplement company in the book, it talks about it working 18 hours a day, Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: right. But that's a pretty 80, 000 a month. I mean, in revenue is a good, good base, you know? And then if you have a breakdown at that point, you can do that and then write this. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of. There's just a lot of books out there that are, I mean, they're all, should get a list of them, right? Donna Serdula: We should get a list together. Isaiah Hankel: get double, do half, less, do more. And I think, and then there's the other people that go in the opposite direction. Like I mentioned, like Gary Vaynerchuk, for at least for a while, he was just like 18 hours a day, work every day. You know, you got to find, you got to find whatever it is for you, but I can tell you, you're trying to get to a certain level, you're going to have to be switched on the time and you're going to have to be ready and you're going to have to go through periods of massive stretching. Like if you want to get hired in today's job market, you have to go through a period of massive stretching where you [00:17:00] might have to put in the hours that other people want, you might be in a job currently you don't like and have to, you might have to work after that from five to. Midnight for a while, you might to, to get into a, a, a, a dream role. They're not just handing out, you Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: roles right now. Donna Serdula: Yeah. And then, and then it's at the same time, right? You also have to figure out where you want to go. If you're not willing to put in those hours, what are you willing to put into to, to achieve what you want? Because I think there is a balance to everything. I'm not saying it's, it's, but, but figure out, maybe, maybe you don't want to be in the C suite. Maybe you want to, land somewhere as an individual contributor role. There's, there's nothing wrong with that either, but you have to figure out where do you want to land. And what's the, what's going to get you there and how can you do it in a, in a smart way, but how can you do it knowing that you're really putting forth the effort to get there? I think it's the effort piece, like how much effort do you need to be, [00:18:00] be putting in there investing? Cause it is an investment. Isaiah Hankel: Well, and obviously, you know, there's there, this is speaking to this audience. This is a leadership podcast. So you want to be a leader. So if you, if this doesn't resonate with you, then you're listening to the wrong thing, right? So because by definition, leadership means you are above at a higher Donna Serdula: Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: You can do it really. There's only two ways you can think about it, right? Work smart, work hard. It's usually a combination of both. You can have some sort of creative breakthrough that can blast you ahead. And that is, that is real. Like I, and I know you've probably experienced this too. Like you, I've realized that the most important thing to being successful in business is having the right business model, right? Has nothing to do with. You know, what did they call it? Zero to one, right? Where if you shift the business model, things can take off, but if you're just trying to incrementally get better, eventually the market's going to shift. So, so it was like, so that's, that's what I mean by creative. So [00:19:00] creative breakthrough, working smart is a real thing, but working hard is also a real thing. Like, cause you'll have a creative breakthrough and then it might be years of working hard in that new model. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: you'll have to have another creative breakthrough and work. And same thing with careers. People get into a career, work hard for a few years, and then you need to have another breakthrough. It might be a promotion into a different role at that company, or more likely in today's world, shifting to a different company. To get into a higher level role. Donna Serdula: I agree. And even as an individual contributor, right? You do. I think you can still be a leader as an individual contributor and you still need to, Put all you can into it, because ultimately there's the brand. I always think in terms of the brand, like how are you, how are you presenting yourself? How are you networking? How are you, getting out there and meeting people? And like there, that's, there's that brand when, when people, think of you after you walk in the room or you walk out of the room, what are they [00:20:00] thinking? ~ ~Whether it's the way you're dressed, whether it's how you speak and how you present yourself, it will always come down to the work that you do, right? And how good was it? Because you can, you can put fluff on top of it, but ultimately the core people will say, yeah, but the work really isn't there. Isaiah Hankel: Yeah,~ I think, I think, yeah. I mean, ~if you think in percentages, you don't have to want to be the one top 1 percent of your organization. Some people don't want that, but I think if you're going to be a leader, you know, maybe the top 20%, which could be, it may not, you know, I'll be the C suite may not even be VP, but you're, you're definitely in whatever that department is, you're going to want to be one of the top. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: in some area, I bet it is, let's say you, you want to be such a leader that they value you so much that you get to have better work life balance or work remotely. Maybe that it's what it is for you. Other people might just be straight up paycheck. So yeah, you have to set your, you got to set your standards. You got to set your goal Donna Serdula: Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: figure out how to be a leader in whatever that [00:21:00] category is to get you that goal. Donna Serdula: Yeah. And to be the leader, you've got to make sure you're doing the right work. You're doing good work. You're working hard. You're making a difference. That's, it all, it all snowballs. It snowballs. 4th of July Plans and Conclusion --- Donna Serdula: What are you doing for July 4th? Isaiah Hankel: You know, I got one of those little packs of, uh, I don't know, Sparklers for my kids. Not even the sparkler. I don't even feel good with sparkler, with toddlers, so I have a, like ones they throw on the ground to pop. Donna Serdula: Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: I still remember those as a kid. I, I, I thought it was the most fascinating thing in the world except for when I have to now clean it up after my Donna Serdula: There's a lot of tissue on the ground afterwards. Isaiah Hankel: lot, lot of tissue. What about you? Donna Serdula: We are doing a barbecue, hamburgers, hot dogs. And tomorrow we're actually going to go to our neighbor's house. And he's one of those fireworks guys. Like he gets the big tubes and he lights them and they go off. And I, and I, and my, my prayer is always that, [00:22:00] you know, we all leave home with the same amount of fingers that we went in with. Isaiah Hankel: I remember being awake when all the fireworks happen now. Twice a year, I'm woken up from fireworks, Fourth of July. And then, uh, Donna Serdula: new year's. Right. Isaiah Hankel: Year's. Donna Serdula: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah Hankel: just happening. I'm like, New Year's again. And that's how I, that's how I count the years. How many times I've been woken up from fireworks, anyway, Donna Serdula: Well, it has been a pleasure talking to you today and I'll see you next Thursday. Isaiah Hankel: see you next Thursday. ​