Chris 0:00 Like, what do we do in meantime, while we watch all going on, because it's so hard not to just let the anger... Andre 0:06 Can I give you the answer? Chris 0:07 Yeah, please. I'm asking for it. Andre 0:09 You're not gonna like it Chris 0:12 Is it "thoughts and prayers"? Because if that's the answer, you're right. I don't like it. Andre 0:22 Sad thoughts. Well, it's not really the answer. It's just my perspective of being black in this country. What do you think I've been doing for 48, 49 years? Chris 0:32 Yeah, I know, but you gotta remember, I'm new to this... Andre 0:37 Last week, not last week, last recording session. As we got towards the end, you and I were chatting, I think after we had stopped recording, about, you know, kind of our respective positions on the political spectrum. And you're like, I'm definitely, you know, the more I listen to it, I'm not a progressive, Speaker 1 0:57 you know. I'm not coming in with the Bernie Sanders plan. And I'm like, I don't know. I you know, I feel like maybe I'm more on the Bernie Sanders side now than I ever was before. And so we decided, let's make a fun debate episode out of this. Billionaires. Yeah, should they exist? Should we have billionaires? Andre 1:20 I'll say this to start, I hear that argument a lot on like from progressives, progressives that billionaires shouldn't exist. We cannot afford a billionaire class whose greed and corruption has been at war with the working families of this country for 45 years. So that's my that's my stance. So Speaker 1 1:42 your stance is that progressives don't think billionaires should exist, and so because of that, you think they should, well, not because Andre 1:49 of that, I just think that Speaker 1 1:54 anything progressives want Andre is like, no, no. Screw you opposite side. Andre 2:02 You know me, so tell me, what are the cons? Love to hear it. Speaker 1 2:08 Yeah, so I tried to put some some significant thought into this over the last week or so. Andre 2:15 I'm gonna crap all over. So no, I know that's Speaker 1 2:19 that's why I'm prefacing this. I did my own research, you know, because that's what we're supposed to do these days, right? I went to Google and I said, Why should we get rid of billionaires and Google's generative AI was like, we shouldn't billionaires are wonderful and contribute everything to society. No, not really, okay, so I guess I it started with, like, kind of a couple of questions more than anything, right? Like, What benefit do billionaires provide to society as a whole, right? Andre 3:07 Sure? Am I supposed to answer that? Oh, Speaker 1 3:09 I'm just, it's kind of an open question. I mean, do you Sure? What do you think they provide? Because I'm struggling to find here's, Andre 3:17 here's the thing that i i Here's why. I can't support the argument that billionaires shouldn't exist. It's because of history. It's because of global economies. Throughout history, you're always going to have a small percentage of the population that are wealthier than everybody else. So I'll start with what that foundation to say there's no value when you're looking up the ladder is a weird point of view, because throughout, like, throughout a person's working life, typically, or that's the thought you're going to move up a rung or two in the ladder. Sure. I think the issue that most people have with billionaires is they're projecting their own personal morality on to billionaires, and it's really easy to do when you're not a billionaire, right? So I don't, I don't know if the question itself, you know, what value do they provide at some point in their life? Let's, let's remove billionaire because most billionaires are, they inherit their wealth, right? Let's say wealthy people, because I think that's probably the, the real issue that people have, and it's but I'm still, you know, going to say that if you're looking up the ladder, things look unfair. But how often do we look down the ladder to see how fair we're being to those lower on the ladder? Sure, so the value question, or what value do they bring? It's a hard it's a probably an unanswerable question. Because, like, if I was in that position, I know that my own personal morality would be different than the people that I could look up and critique. Sure, I think Speaker 1 5:13 that's fair. Maybe a better way to look at it is, is there an additional benefit to society in having people with over a billion dollars versus people with 999 million, you know, whatever. Andre 5:34 It's just a numbers game. It is. It is um. Chris 5:39 All right. So some more. Speaking of numbers, Andre 5:46 I'm gonna math your opinion out of you. Speaker 1 5:48 I mean, I think that there are some important figures that I'd like to bring up. So since 2000 right? So basically, over the last 2425 years, the number of billionaires in the world has increased from 298 to 402,781 Okay, so that's what a Andre 6:15 on. Something 1000, 1,000% increase, Speaker 1 6:18 10,000% increase in 25 years the average wealth of billionaires. So not so sorry, not the average wealth, the total wealth, kind of owned or controlled by billionaires, increased from 275 billion in 2000 to 14 point 2 trillion in 2025 so that's an average increase of 200% year over year for the last 25 years. That's a pretty good growth rate. Andre 6:54 Well, if you if you're Speaker 1 6:57 tripling your money every year for 25 years. Andre 7:03 If you're to look at the industries where those billionaires crop up, it would support my argument. Why I think Wall Street is bullshit, Speaker 1 7:13 and Wall Street plays a huge part in it. Absolutely right. I mean, why is Elon Musk considered a billionaire? It's not because he has billions of dollars in his bank account, right? It's because he owns a lot of stock in his own companies, and Wall Street has determined that, for whatever reason, despite Tesla missing their fourth quarter revenue targets by billions of dollars, that it's still one of the most valuable companies out there. Andre 7:39 Yeah, he foolishly said that he could be more Speaker 1 7:43 valuable than the top five companies. Andre 7:47 So I don't want to start bashing Elon, although that's very easy to do. Chris 7:56 It's like half the reason we have a podcast. Andre 8:01 I think the the argument would be made that if the money is or the values being derived from Wall Street, or certain sectors of Wall Street, or certain industries in our global market, Speaker 1 8:14 I mean, we should ban Wall Street. Well, I'm not opposed. All right, okay, see, we're making progress here. Andre 8:26 So I think that that when you i discount their worth because of that, because I know it's paper money, it doesn't really exist. And we are definitely, we're definitely, there's a lot of industries that they're, they're at the over expansion of a bubble, sure. Speaker 1 8:44 I mean, AI, right? We know is one of them. I think deep seat kind of proved that here recently, right? Andre 8:52 So if I'm Sam Altman, I'm asking myself, well, how, how do I explain all the investment dollars I've taken at Yeah, if I'm the CEO of Nvidia. I forget, forget his name right now. Speaker 1 9:05 I mean, Elon Musk has said that Tesla is a software like an AI company, right? Like, that's why, because, because of their autonomous driving, that is going to be ready next year, next year, and right now, is already safer than a human behind the wheel, except for Andre 9:23 the crashes crashes. So I think my my stance is, I think looking at over inflated markets is not the is not the right measure. I think the argument becomes, how do we, how do we rewrite, rewrite our tax law? How do we get rid of all the loopholes that we have in our in corporate practices like, why are more than 40% of large companies based in Delaware? Right? So there's a lot of things where that conversation, when you pull all the threads, it gets real messy. I don't think multi, uh, multi billionaires are the problem. I think the system, in and of itself, is the issue that we're not addressing. To look at that person or those people and say You're the problem without recognizing how they're being valued. And there's, like, I was just doing some research the other day, and there's a bunch of companies where the PE is like, 50 and 60% Yeah, right. So your price earnings, how is it 50 years, like 50 to 60, you know, 60s, it's just weird to me. So I've been slowly disenchanted with Wall Street, Speaker 1 10:51 basically just a big gambling market. Yes, all it is. Speaker 2 10:59 Well, 16. I 21 Speaker 1 11:08 right now, right? I mean, I think there was a time when it was designed more as an as truly an investment, like, right? Oh, this is a company that you know I want to support. Andre 11:20 You would see a PE between seven to 15, right? But not 50 and 60. So I don't, I think that's the billionaires are a symptom again, and we're not addressing the real issue. I don't hate people that acquire wealth, right? Yeah, I don't hate people that make large salaries. That's not my argument, but I do critique. Are this the systems in place that are killing the middle class? You know, Speaker 1 11:53 that's fair, so I think I agree. Oh, and Andre 11:58 one other thing since you brought up deep seek, because that supports an argument I've been having about innovation. For a number of you, and I have talked about this, I keep saying we don't innovate, and we just sit and rest in our laurels, and we wonder why we're falling behind. We're wondering why, you know, we abdicate entire industries to other countries. I was having a conversation. This is the a mini rant, and then I let you add your point. Oh, you're good. I was having a conversation with somebody just last week, and I was getting real frustrated because they're they're understanding, and the application of tariffs doesn't make any sense to me. And I said, Look, having a trade war is kind of silly because we're giving up on things like cars. And I was trying to do a mini history lesson in this whole conversation with this person, and say basically the reason why it sucks that China is selling more cars at a cheaper price, and not just Europe, but also Africa and South America is basically because American cars are what propelled our our economy after World War Two. So if you give somebody a good that they're going to hold on to, and they build a brand reputation, and they they can make they can sell them for 10,000 $18,000 whatever the price. Whatever the price is, you start to replace the more expensive thing. So when we when we don't look at innovation, we don't look at the things that we should do, we don't pivot. This is one of those pivot moments where Ford abdicates a sedan and GM, the same thing, and now, because those are the only two American car companies we have, we're just in, we're just we're screwed, and we're not innovating. Yeah, Speaker 1 13:54 I think it's, I know you know that it's a very complex, you know, layered issue, right? So many things that have happened over the last 50 plus years to kind of get us to this point, the the globalization of the manufacturing industry, right? And the US is in decision, or, you know, just inability to balance the cost of goods, you know, for what was being, it was basically like, Nah, we'd rather import the cheap shit that's not going to last very long because it's cheap. Everything became about, just get it as cheap as you can, you know, even if it's not, instead of like, well, no, I'm going to invest in something that's going to last me a while. You know, it became that whole, uh. Disposable, you know, market where everything just becomes a disposable item. I mean, how many cell phones sit, you know, like, I bet, if I dug through my bags and boxes and stuff so that we moved, I probably have cell phones from 15 years ago that are still sitting. I have, I Andre 15:16 have three in my office, plus my no four in my office, plus my daily driver, right, right? So the idea of durable goods, we've exchanged that for non durable goods, so fast fashion and things that we can dispose of quickly, and we were losing the insight like to understand how economies move. There are commodities that every country needs, that we used to be the number one exporter of. Now that's been reversed. Yeah, I don't care what anybody says. We don't it's not about winning, but we're not competitive that way, right? Speaker 1 15:57 Like trade is a is a give and take, right, right? It's not a zero sum game if you do it, right? You know, Canada has stuff that they manufacture that we should that, like we can't manufacture here, right, right? Or that it's, maybe it's not as easy, or whatever. And we have stuff here that we make, that they want. So, right? Yeah, trade like it's so it seems so basic. I know. Andre 16:28 Another example is I drive an infinity that's made by Nissan. Nissan is in the process of merging with Mitsubishi and Honda. Yeah, right. I'm probably never going to buy another infinity again, because not that my car has got problems. It's just that when it comes to being competitive with technology in the vehicle, it's kind of lackluster. Some of the newer vehicles have some some quirky mechanical issues that I just don't want to invest in in the future, right? But that's a strong brand that used to be called Dodson back in the day, that it's at the end of the road, and they aren't competitive like they've just had their fourth year of being like last in US sales and they're not even competitive in Japan. So you can be at the top of your game and then just fall off completely and just into obscurity. Chris 17:33 Look at Chrysler, right? Andre 17:36 That's when I mentioned American automakers. I didn't mention Chrysler or solantis, whoever they'll be next week, Chris 17:46 so subsidiary of Jaguar. Andre 17:53 So with that, that's why I don't really, I don't think the billionaires are the problem. So when I hear people like, I don't want to throw out any names. Do it, David Pac Man and Kyle ski. He's got this YouTube channel secular talk. I agree with that's why I don't. I don't really rock with a lot of what Bernie Sanders says. It's like, we can do. We literally can't. Can do both things. We can have universal health care without demonizing billionaires, right? Because the billionaires aren't really the problem. Like, if we did the if we did the long haul, right, things that we're supposed to do, we wouldn't be having this conversation Speaker 1 18:41 that's fair. I think you're right about a couple of things that I do want to clarify just my position on. I'm not I'm not really mad at the billionaires, right? Okay, it's not so much like they should be erased off the face of the planet sort of thing. It's more just, we've let things get so far out of balance. You know, I mean, you talk about, like, the concentration of wealth and how, you know, global economies, that's always going to occur. And I understand that. I think my question about, like, what is the benefit of billionaires? I think, what is it that they do with that additional wealth, right, versus what could be done with that additional wealth? And, and I'm it's not so much a morality it is a morality question, well, but no, because it's, it's, to me, it's more of an application, right? A billionaire is not going to, I don't expect a billionaire to say, I'm going to fund universal health care for the country, right? Or, or, you know, fight I don't want a banana. Prevalent billionaire. Like, that's the whole thing. I'm not I just think that, right, we've gotten to a point where we've got these, you know, five or six people that were all sitting there behind Donald Trump at his fucking inauguration, who are all worth billions of fucking dollars, who just bought their way into an unelected seat of power, and it's again, separate issue. It is, but it's not about the billionaires. It's just again, like things have gotten so far out of balance. So Andre 20:35 that proves they're two separate problems, right? I don't want to conflate the the BS we're seeing right now with the President of the United States and the people that are trying to, in reality, cover their ass, right? Yeah. Last thing you want is, if I'm Tim Cook, last thing I want is the DOJ, right? Speaker 1 20:58 No, I get it right. I do I get, you know, Zuckerberg settling for 25 million. No stop. Andre 21:07 I No, I doubt I understand Tim Cook and I understand Sundar Bucha. Okay, why don't you understand mark? Because Sundar and Tim Cook are employees of a company, Zuckerberg Bezos and and dickhead. Yeah, they own those companies. So they're the those two motivations are probably different, right? In my personal opinion, the employee of the company probably very vested in the success of that company. Sure, yeah, has a as an agent of that company, has a responsibility, sure, three or that is Bezos is not on the board anymore. He's doing whatever Elon is playing, uh, yeah, something of exiles. No, Speaker 1 21:59 he's not. He's paying somebody to power. Okay, you heard that, right? Andre 22:04 Yeah, I did. But I'm sick like he's got other things. He's screwing up, uh, Zuckerberg is. He's definitely covering his ass, right? Speaker 1 22:14 But, but you don't understand him settling for 25 million. There. No, actually, Andre 22:18 that part I don't like what's 25 Speaker 1 22:21 million to Mark Zuckerberg? Well, that's a, that's a $25,000 fine to an NFL player, right? Like, it's, oh, here, 25 million. And guess what. Now, you know, we're gonna make this go away. I can play nice. I get back, invited back into I mean, Trump literally said we're gonna have to settle this before he gets invited back into the tent, right? So he settled it, and now he's back in the tent like this is it's just sorry. It's so fucking angry. I am so fucking angry about the, just the massive, blatant corruption. And I know like it's honestly, it's better that it's blatant than it just being completely behind the scenes, you know, cloak and dagger. Andre 23:11 I used to, I used to think that it's okay for a person, just it's another racist, but I think it makes it that much more nefarious to know the racist, just like I feel, is that much more nefarious to know the corruption like I've I've been watching, well, reading the news, And it's like, so what's gonna happen, right? We're just watching this go on, right? And no, I'll be I'll be even more like transparent. I have friends that come from countries where they may or may not have dictators, but the living conditions are very challenging. Or they live they're from countries where the the government is completely corrupted. For those, for that group, where their government is completely corrupted, I never asked this question, how do you live in a country with a dictator and let that go on for so long without people dying because somebody like eventually people should get fed up, and we should go to arms, right? Yep, we're watching like we're watching some pretty heinous stuff, whether we're talking about the deportations, where less than 50% of the people that have been like detained are criminals, whether it's the it's Obama Biden's fault that I fired 8000 people at the FAA, or, I'm sorry, uh, air traffic controllers and made some of the. Top leadership in charge of flight safety resign, I don't know there's and then, you know, 60 plus people are dead. And then, oh, the the pilots, their Dei, well, come to find out, the pilot of the helicopter has 1000 hours, and he was a flight instructor, and they were doing a qualified mission for night training. So we're watch. I mean, I get, I don't, I don't know. I'm irritated too, but, oh, and, and on the top it all off, you played yourself like guys. I mean, there's a lot of people. There's well, people that look like me. We're like, Y'all, y'all, y'all, on some bullshit, like, so I get your anger, but it's like, what are we gonna do? Chris 26:00 I don't know. I mean, because it's like, what is, you know, what is the line, you know, like, what is the line who's already crossed it? But that's what I'm saying, like, in but right? You and I are sitting here bitching about it on a fucking podcast? Yeah? I mean, I'm not trying to call us out any more than everybody else, but I'm just like, that's where I'm at is. I'm like, I don't know what the fuck to do. I mean, what I'm supposed to do, I need to go buy a fucking gun. Like, is that? I gotta go buy some guns. And fucking All right, let's fucking do this shit, right? Like, is that where we're at, you know, I see all over fucking Reddit, like, oh, there's, you know, we're gonna do protests, 50 cities, 50 people, you know, blah, blah, blah, 50 capitals. And I'm like, yo, okay, you show up, you probably gonna get fucking pepper sprayed. I'm not Andre 26:49 protesting shit, but I am gonna make sure I vote. I'm gonna make sure I stay engaged in things I can do at a local and hope, hopefully blossoming level. Chris 27:00 I mean, I'm for that too, right? Like, but what are you, I mean, like, what do we do in the fucking meantime, while we watch all this fucking shit going on, because it's so hard not to just let the anger, can I, Andre 27:11 can I give you the answer? Yeah, please. Speaker 1 27:13 I'm asking for it. You're not gonna like it. Thoughts and prayers, because if that's the answer, you're right. Andre 27:27 Sad thoughts, well, it's not really the answer. Okay, this is my perspective of being black in this country. What do you think I've been doing for 4849 Speaker 1 27:36 years? Yeah, I know, but you gotta I'm new to this. I'm new to being black. I uh, no, it's, um, Andre 27:44 it's pretty fucked up, right? Speaker 1 27:46 It's really fucked up. I mean, it's really, really fucked up, right? And fuck, I just, I don't know. I think that's part of why I'm so angry, is because I don't know. I don't know what I should be doing right? Like, I don't know. I don't know if what I'm doing is enough, right. And I get angry because I I go to the wrong tab on Reddit, and I get into a comment section where everybody's just bitching about everything, and I'm just like, but what fucking good is it doing? Right? Like, what good is it doing to just sit here and fucking bitch into this echo chamber on Reddit, right? Like, I'm not not participating, not trying to, like, because that's, there's no fucking point that's not healthy, exactly. And so I think, no, I think Andre 28:45 part of the thing that one thing you can do, and this is what I hope more people do and in leadership positions, is stop pussy footing around with this guy, Trump, like the representative from Denmark who said, let me say this, Yeah, fuck off Speaker 2 29:08 Trump. Listen very carefully, Greenland have been part of the Danish kingdom for 800 years. It's an integrated part of our country. It is not for sale. Let me put it in words you might understand Mr. Trump fuck Andre 29:26 off. Like, what are we doing? Like, pretending like he's a civil individual, all this decorum shit and showing up at the inauguration like, fuck Speaker 1 29:36 right? Thanks for checking out the Chris and Andre show. Remember, unlike yourself in middle school, those like and subscribe buttons aren't going to hit themselves. And be sure to leave a comment with your favorite part of the show or a topic you'd like us to cover in the future, as always, stay salty. You. Unknown Speaker 29:50 Down you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai