CHOOSING YOUR REFLECTION
TITLE: Top Hats & Converse Shoes
DURATION: 34:50

Getting married is an event that holds a different meaning for everyone. For some, itÕs based on religious traditions, and for others itÕs a validation of an earlier choice they made to live with that special someone they love.Ê

Hi, IÕm Lauren, and welcome to Choosing Your Reflection; a series of discussions that reflect upon the reasons we have for choosing our wedding day outfits.Ê Our guests are diverse, but they all share a common journey.Ê

As they share their stories, theyÕll help us unravel the mystique that exists around choosing that special outfit, and what they learned about themselves along the way.

Lauren: Taylor Stilwell is a Bay Area transplant. By day she turns tedious corporate policies into comical yet appropriate documents. By night she's a writer and focuses on humor and forgiveness to get through life's lessons. She just finished her first book about surviving divorce, co-parenting, and loving all of it. Taylor is also on a one-woman mission to find out the line between not enough and too much coffee. Thank you so much for joining us Taylor!

Taylor: Thank you! It's a pleasure!

Lauren: So to start off, I would love if you could tell me a little bit about what you always wanted or maybe didn't always want in a wedding.

Taylor: Ahhh, you start with the rough ones, but good! So I am in my second marriage. So the first marriage ended actually É gosh it's been 19 years now! So my ex and I are still really good friends. The relationship I'm in now, we've been together 15 years and we have just got married in August of last year. 

So the first marriage went É yeah I had it all planned out in my head. I knew what it was going to look like I was young and ready and decided to get married on the first date, and decided that maybe this time we give it a little bit of thought and went the other, you know the other end of the pendulum so ... 

What I'm looking for in a wedding, wow! It's changed quite a bit over the years. In the first wedding what I was looking for was what I had been É I don't want to say trained to look for but really the one I'd seen in movies. You know, it was the wedding and it was É everything was perfect in it and including the relationship afterwards that had no human problems. And that's not how life worked. 

So in the second wedding I was looking for the marriage and I just had some more life experience under my belt that allowed me to know what real relationships look like.

Lauren: Starting off as a younger person you have these idealizations of what marriage and weddings are supposed to be but they don't always end up that way, and that's okay. I would love to know what did you wear on your first wedding and how did you kind of switch that up for your second wedding?

Taylor: On the first wedding I wore a white sleeveless É it kind of looks thicker than spaghetti strap white wedding dress that hung to the floor and had a long train in the back and had a lovely veil that resembled a tiara that hung down the back. And it was your typical wedding dress for the weather and the climate in which they got married that you would see on the cover of any kind of bridal magazine. 

In the second wedding I wore a maroon chiffon kind of a A-line dress with a denim jacket that covered it and white converse shoes and a black top hat!

Lauren: For your first wedding outfit did you choose it because it was a traditional dress or did you choose it because it felt right and perfect for you? And then the same exact question for your second outfit.

Taylor: I chose it because it was what I had seen for weddings growing up. I grew up in the south and people have beautiful weddings there. And they're a production, and they're lovely! And you wear a white dress that hangs to the floor. And you have your hair and veil fixed to match it in some sort of kind of up do. And it's É it really was just what I thought everyone wanted to see me looking like. 

Now I'm not sure that that's true, but that was the story I put on it. And my husband in that wedding wore a beautiful black tuxedo with a white bow tie that matched my beautiful white dress. And everything about it was very traditional. And it just felt like that's what you do at a wedding. I was young. I was twenty-five, I was young. I really didn't know what I was doing. I looked at the weddings I had been to; what did they dress like, let's do that and that's what you do. 

And it was the one that I went and picked out the dress with my mom. And we had this fantastic experience shopping for it and trying dresses on! And then when I narrowed it down having my dad see me wear both of them and which did he like. And the one that brought tears to his eyes was the one I chose. And it was just the whole experience behind it. And this É and it was also a decent size wedding that I was going to be walking down in front of hundreds of people.

My second wedding I was a little bit older and we had seven people at that wedding and it was very small. This wedding was actually a surprise for my wife! It was a É right, it was a surprise wedding!

Lauren: A surprise! 

Taylor: Yes, yes! She did not know we were getting married! Now we had been engaged for a couple of years and so she's not someone who loves fanfare nor does she like big events or planning them. So what I told her was we were going to an afternoon shindig that one of our friends was putting on, and that it was fun and fancy and formal. I said ÒThat's the words behind it so could you plan outfits for us?Ó That way she had a really big part in the planning of it without knowing because I didn't want to just say ÒThis is what you're wearing.Ó

So when I had her plan both of our outfits for fun, fancy, and formal, sheÕs like ÒWhat do you want to wear?Ó I said ÒWell how about a dress?Ó And so we went dress shopping together and she's like ÒI like this but it's outside, it's gonna be cold.Ó She's like ÒHow about a denim jacket with it?Ó And she's looking ÒWouldn't it be great if we both wore matching converse? That would be fun!Ó And she's like ÒI'm wearing jeans!Ó and I said ÒThat's great!Ó 

And so she had on jeans with, with you know É she found a jacket she liked and a vest and a tie and É and I said ÒOur son's gonna be there.Ó He's my son from my first marriage but he's been around since she was around. So she dressed him as well. So he had on converse as well and another tie that matched hers and his own outfit as he was walking us down the aisle unbeknownst to her. So that was kind of the planning and thought process behind both outfits.

Lauren: That is, I mean I'm sorry, that's adorable and so sweet! I can't believe that you did a surprise wedding! And not only that, that you incorporated your wife's opinions and thoughts and her wants in that without even É how did you É I had a surprise birthday once and I don't even know how that was pulled off let alone a surprise wedding! Can you tell me what goes into that? I mean wow! I mean even if it's only for seven people that's a lot of work!

Taylor: So it was, it was amazing! I had a couple of her best friends that she'd grown up with that were part of it and a couple of mine. And we had a couple of mutual friends. And so for the mutual friends was like ÒHey, do any of you want to get ordained?Ó And so we had one of them's like ÒYes I want to marry you guys!Ó And one my friends had said ÒYou know I'm 50 years oldÓ and said ÒI've never been a flower girl. Can I be a flower girl at your wedding? And I'll plan all the flowers!Ó and I said ÒSure!Ó  

And we had it outside at a public park um you know in San Francisco and a park that overlooks the ocean and has like really old eucalyptus trees. So you know there really wasn't much to plan, short of I said you know, she just thought we're going to a gala. I made it [by saying] we're going to some sort of real estate gala. And so I said ÒBut we have to get dressed up. And bring a cameraÓ because my wife's a photographer. Now she didn't actually take pictures of course. 

So we had a few people in on the secret. So she knew we were getting dressed up, she knew why, and I had hired a cellist. That was the only person that didn't know us that was part of this. And we had the cellist play, you know, again, what was our song. That's in air quotes!Ó I turn a rock song to, you know, into cello music and play it. And then we had a very quick ceremony and we had bouquets and boutonnieres because my good friend had never been a flower girl! So there wasnÕt tons and tons of planning! And I told all of our guests ÒWear whatever you want and converse shoes!Ó

Lauren: So there was the through line of the converse for everyone!

Taylor: The through line of the converse for everybody!

Lauren: That's amazing! When you were walking down the aisle with your son and her, did she notice? Was there like a realization moment or was it just she got to the front and oh my gosh now we're getting married?

Taylor: Actually so the way the park is set up there is an old like stone area at the top of it that has like probably 25 steps that lead up to that É that part of the park. So I waited at the bottom step for her as one of our friends was you know they run a fake errand and she was bringing her. 

So when she came with our friend who kept going, I told her we had two options. We could go to the top of the stairs and get married or we could go back to the car and grab lunch together just she and I. And that it was really her choice with no pressure. And she looked and she's like ÒThere's no real estate party?Ó I'm like ÒThere's no real estate party.Ó I said ÒAnd it's up to you which one we do.Ó 

And she was like É she really wasn't sure if I was telling the truth because we do play tricks on each other. And then my son walked down the steps and he held up both of his arms and he said ÒI'm just curious if IÕm walking you ladies down the aisle or not.Ó And she looked É she goes ÒThis is real!Ó I said ÒThis is real!Ó And so we walked up the steps with our, you know, my son, our son in the middle to a little ceremony that lasted maybe 10 minutes.

Lauren: YouÕve got me tearing up! Jeez! Wow! That is one of the sweetest things I've ever heard! And IÕm not a sappy person but wow, that really touches me! ItÕs so lovely that you got to not only plan that for her, but also that you presented the options and it was like this beautiful moment for you two. 

That's so amazing! I can't even put words É it's such a lovely story! I'm so glad that you came to share it with me! I'm sorry, I'm like overwhelmed! I'm trying to think of a good question now because I just, I was taken in by your story! Afterwards what did you guys do? Did you celebrate? Did you just go home and be together? What did you follow that up with, such an amazing experience?

Taylor: Well we actually had the group of É there was like I said seven of us, including our son. We had a lunch booked together at a restaurant in San Francisco, a vegetarian restaurant that's one of our favorites that overlooks the Golden Gate Bridge. And then we did some kind of what would be stereotypical iconic wedding photos with the Golden Gate Bridge in the background. And [we] had some fun because she had picked top hats for both of us with É you know, and it was very windy so some of them were top hats blowing away! You know hair in our face! And some are É we, you know, spent a little time getting a couple of really posed looking shots.

But we all had a lovely time together and then our friends went their way. And then you know she and me and our son went back to our house for the evening. And we're a family. And just really it was a very laid-back evening because we've been together for so long so it was just a nice calm evening. And our friends knew that that was going on so they've given us like a gift certificate to some lovely hotel in the city to use at a future time. 

Lauren: Sounded such like an intimate, loving wedding a lovely experience for everyone involved which, not that that contrasts in care to your first wedding, but just the intimacy of it is a clear contrast.

Taylor: There was a different kind of love in the first wedding. Certainly less intimacy because the wedding itself was within a year before É I hadn't even known him a year when the wedding occurred. And so it was one of those weddings where I'm sure half the people thought that I would be showing or pregnant, and I was not. 

But there was something new about that, and that relationship, and him. And you the way I loved him was É that was like a Hallmark love. It was so perfect and so wonderful. And it wasn't based on a whole lot of depth because there was no time to even have that depth. So there was the newness of it and that É you know that magic where you think you've found the one.

And so there was that kind of passion in the first wedding. That's not what was there for the second wedding. But there was intimacy and realness and authenticity in the second one and just shared values and a shared connection that only comes from walking through some really hard life lessons together that the first wedding didn't have. So it yielded for a very different experience and I wouldn't trade either of them. They were both magical and both special and you know just É just very different.

Lauren: You speak about them with such a love, I think at least from my perspective. You take your time and you really do care about how you're talking about both weddings. And I wonder with your more recent wedding, when your wife was putting those outfits together, how do you think they reflected your relationship in regards to obviously the intimacy, obviously the passion, obviously the long term experience that you'd had with your wife prior to getting married É do you think that your outfits reflected that in any way? 

Taylor: Absolutely because she knows me so intimately and even at that time already knew me so intimately, she knew what I would be comfortable in and what I wouldn't want to wear. And you know knew what colors looked good on me and what's É like we É I would hold up something and she be like ÒUhn-huh! No that's gonna make you look fat!Ó 

And so you know there's just É we had some fun with it and that only É what came out of those outfits is years of knowing each other and knowing our likes and dislikes, you know on a on a physical level and on a deeper level too. And so, and we also had the relationship where she could say things like ÒThat color is going to really look terrible on youÓ or ÒThat's a horrible idea or that's a fantastic ideaÓ as we played it together. 

And there was a specialness to it, she just didn't know what it was! I was beaming when we were doing this and I couldn't say why. And she was like ÒYou're really excited about a real estate party!Ó being that that's not what either of us were involved in. And I said ÒWell she's a good friend!Ó I said but ÒNo, it's just we haven't gone out anywhere fancy in a long time. I'm excited about the idea of an afternoon out at a fancy shindig. 

So, but there's just so much kind of love behind it that she was clearly picking up on and just wasn't really sure what it was, but also knew enough like don't question, you know, so É

Lauren: That speaks to a lot of trust and comfort between the two of you as well, which of course having a long-term relationship there's got to be a lot of trust and comfort there. 

We've seen a shift. It's so much more normal and acceptable and lovely and intimate to have these moments with just the people that really need to be there. I think it's amazing that you have both of those experiences and I don't think a lot of people can say that they have both of those experiences. 

And I would love to know what your thoughts are beyond the what you've already shared É what elements of the wedding the two weddings that you've had reflect you the most? You as a person?

Taylor: On the surface I'd say oh the second one, that's hands down. But that's really not true. The first wedding reflected who I was at the time. And what was really important to me when I was 24, 25 was that I had grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles that meant so much to me that I just couldn't imagine them not being there. I couldn't imagine not going through the experience of walking down the aisle with my dad and having É you know I had a brother who tried on veils so I could see what they looked like from the back for the first wedding.

And going with my mom and doing the typical wedding planning, I wouldn't miss out on that! That would just be so horrible if that hadn't happened because it meant so much to me and still does to this day. And so it really is reflective of the value I have for the families that I grew up with.

And that was in the south and I've moved out of the south because of that marriage because he lived in California, so I moved here with him. And then you know over time became a different person living in California. But you know my love of the family that raised me and all of those relatives that were there supporting me hasn't changed. 

So É and it's not like well I'd done that with them, they don't need to be there É that's certainly not true, but you know life sometimes throws you some curveballs and for whatever reason it just made sense for my wife and I to have this kind of wedding that fit for who we are.

And I think geographics plays a lot into culture, and Texas is quite different from California. So neither are better or worse, but certainly different. And I think both weddings were reflective of who I was and who I am. And so for better or for worse they were both perfect and I feel this sounds crazy but É because no one wants to be the one that gets a divorce, never! And É but the only reason I got to have two of the most perfect weddings was because I got divorced.

And so it really fits for who I am, and I'm just É I was so much more laid back now. This wedding regardless of what happened even if she said ÒNope, don't want to do thisÓ it really would have been okay. My first wedding, the day of my wedding I realized I didnÕt have shoes. And not that I forgot to bring them, I forgot to purchase them! I had no shoes for my wedding! And I was so nervous about it I threw up in a plant on the way as I was going to walk down the aisle! 

And so you É and I had a groomsmen who they didn't give him tuxedo pants so he had to borrow pants from a guest in the audience at my wedding! And so IÕve got a guest in you know some sort of sweatshorts with his dressy top and groomsmen that six foot five wearing pants for someone five eight! 

And it was all just, just so horrible to me and I was so devastated that it wasn't perfect! And so it, you know , you talk a lot about it and I think I'm the only one who noticed any of it really, but it just is É they really were both who I was and who I am. 

Lauren: I love the answer and I think it points to the beauty that comes out of difficulty! And also that perfection isn't always É doesn't always have to be the goal because perfection can actually be an enemy of you sometimes, because it can stress you out even more. 

Perfect comes. Perfect happens. Things that need to happen happen. And clearly that happened for you whether É I mean obviously throwing up in a plant on the way to your wedding you know is not great, but you still look back on that experience very fondly and now you even had the opportunity despite having a divorce to have this amazing second wedding and this amazing second marriage. And again, out of difficulty comes beauty. Always. I've always seen that in life. It's just a matter of if you look for it and if you allow it to happen.

Taylor: Here, here!

Lauren: So I guess my next question would be do you think that marriage and bonds and relationships have changed over the time that you've been in relationships the way that they come about? And not only over the time that you've been in relationships but also over the past year because a lot of things have changed in the past pandemic as well.

Taylor: You know, I don't really É I don't really know if they've changed or not. I know that after the first marriage I wasn't getting married again. And then I realized well there was a couple of reasons why I wanted to get married again. And someone else described this; this is not my definition. 

And I believe it was Liz Gilbert who said something to the effect of you know not really, even if you're not for marriage, it really is the only way to show the world and society here is this person that IÕve picked to be with me and to love me and that I'm going to love. And we're drawing this line around each other and we're in this for the long haul. And there's nothing else to symbolize that that society says ÒI get itÓ except for marriage. So that really plays into it.

And the other part and this is certainly the last reason I would choose to get married, but it does play into it, is that God forbid you know as you get older something happens to you or whatever, this is the person I want making decisions for me. This is the person I trust to know my wishes and know what I need and I don't want anyone else to do that. And marriage is the only way we have that really cements that process. And again it's the last reason to get married, you know, I think loveÕs there, [it] certainly encompasses most of it, but it did play a part into it.

So I don't know É I don't know if it's changed but my view of marriage has certainly changed over time. And certainly I think the pandemic has changed views on so many things and marriage and weddings being one. 

What I found is É I'm in California where for my job I have been locked down since March 17 for what I do. And so, you know, I am home all the time with another person. And San Francisco houses, they're just not so big! It's not like I can go to one side of the house and she can go to the other to get space! There's no such thing in San Francisco for most people. 

And so that meant every minute of the day we're with each other. And so what that showed me was we've bickered less. I don't think we've gotten in one kind of big fight over this pandemic, and we've had a move in it as well! So you know when I hear some people saying that and some people are just you know aching to get away from their spouse and be back in an office, and I think it's really telling. And it goes again to the intimacy we've talked about and the longevity here that you know this is it. This is my person.

And I will É you know, I'm the first to say I'm going for a walk, I'm going for a hike and you're not invited. You know because I think time É the only way to build a relationship is to have that time where I can be introspective and know who I am today, because most days IÕm who I was yesterday. 

And it's really É that's kind of how we describe our marriage as well. We made sure in these vows it never said forever until death do us part. iI's basically our kind of parameters for marriage; itÕs until we don't want to be married. 

And neither of us see that ending but that's kind of the way we look at the relationship. And we'll have discussions like ÒHey, how's this going? You think we should keep this up?Ó and have real honest discussions about it. And every time weÕre like ÒAbsolutely!Ó but we know that that's a discussion we're ready to have at any time and it's ÒWe are married, we are in this for the long haulÓ until we're not.

Lauren: I think that speaks to a such a strong and supportive vulnerability that the two of you can have together which is so É that honesty is so important for a relationship. And it's so commendable because I don't know very many couples who could sit together and be like ÒAre you still sure that you want to be here? Let's have a real discussion!Ó There not a lot of couples É there are some who can, of course. Definitely. 

But it's É it's a difficult subject to talk about honestly with someone, so i think that's amazingly É you know, you're a living breathing relationship. You're not just ÒOkay, we did this one thing and now it's gonna stay exactly how it was and we're not going to change. We're not going to evolve together. You have to evolve and it's almost like you're renewing your vows every time you have that conversation. And tell me if I'm wrong but that's kind of my interpretation.

Taylor: IÕve not looked at it that way but that's exactly what's happening. And I think É you know you could say it's a hard conversation to have but the alternative would be staying in a relationship where you're not meant to be anymore. And I think that would be worse than hearing ÒHey, this isn't workingÓ or whatever. 

And sometimes the conversation goes ÒIt's not working fantastic. How about we look at making it different?Ó And so, which kind of I think gets us back on track which is great. So we have É we have a lot of practicality in this relationship but there's some magic in it as well. So again I think I'm really, really lucky.

Lauren: There has to be practicality and magic somewhere in between there for any relationship. Marriage, friendship, family, there's got to be a little bit of both. And 
I think that's a beautiful thing that you have. So diverging a little bit, but maybe not, I would love to know a little bit about your book!

Taylor: Sure! Well that is a result of the pandemic. So with a bunch of time on my hands I decided that I would love to have a love story to hand over to my son about his father. Because we got divorced when he was a baby, you know, when we were É he wasn't even a year old and we were living in separate places and well on our way into finalizing our divorce. 

So I thought, well, I'm going to write a love story; I'm going to write him our love story. And that morphed into really a linear progression of my relationship with my ex-husband from the day I met him to today. 

And so that relationship was fabulous in the beginning as many of them are, absolutely storybook! And he's an amazing man! And it morphed into a divorce that went really well, it was the friendliest divorce on the planet. Until it wasn't. 

And it became unfriendly, you know, many years after the divorce was final. We had some hiccups that I thought we wouldn't ever be able to work through, he and I. And the one thing we did was we both did our best to have our son not be affected by it. But he was. But we did at least both try really hard for that to be the goal. 

And over time, what what's happened is through tons of like, just forgiveness on my part, and I'm sure a lot on his too É so I'm no picnic, and he knows that better than anybody. But really, through the ugliest of circumstances and -- you know both ways -- and not just like oh we bickered and were nasty. It was downright ugly. We somehow found our way back as friends and as these parents who are raising this child together. 

So the book is really about É it's about how I walked through all of that, and my take on what it was. But it started as a love story, has a lot of muck in the middle, and it ends as a love story still. Because my life during the pandemic ended with, you know, we're all stuck in lockdown. So it's like, ÒHey, why don't we all just learn to surf and buy surfboards.Ó So the, you know, the pandemic, I spent most every day at the beach with my wife, my ex-husband, my son, my ex- husband's child with his wife, who is 11, and all of us surfing together with my wife doing the pictures of it because she's a photographer. 

And, you know, through the pandemic, our son went away to college to New York. And so now, it's just, you know, it's not near as often, but it's me meeting my ex-husband at the beach to surf together. And the reality is if two people can come through what we did, and not just parent together anymore. You know, he's just É I'd say this. My wife is my person, but he's my husband, you know? And his current wife would probably say he's her husband, and that's absolutely true. So, you know, she gets him for the long haul, I got him for a split moment in time. And so that's what that bookÕs about.

Lauren: What an amazing, happy ending to such a fascinating story. And as a child of divorce, I I've come from divorce as well -- I love my parents -- but they were É it was not a pretty divorce. It was definitely a difficult one. 

So it's so lovely to hear that even though there can be ugly times that at the end of the day, you guys can still surf together with your families. I mean, how what a, what an amazing gift that is for you, for your husband, your ex-husband, and your current your wife and your son. I mean, wow! I'm so glad you wrote that because that's a positive story that not a lot of people hear I think!

Taylor: Yeah, I guess it was just, it's just our story. That's all it is. And it's, and it has been, it's been so lovely. Like, my son's away. He's in New York and I haven't seen him É I donÕt know, whenever he went back after É he was home for a week or two over Christmas. But you know, I texted my ex-husbandÕs son yesterday. I said ÒHey, haven't seen you in like three weeks? What's going on? I miss you!Ó And he texted me a picture. HeÕs like ÒI'm growing my hair out!Ó And how cool is that, that my kind of last substantial text exchange was with my ex-husbandÕs kid? You know, how are you? I miss you! 

Lauren: There's such a beauty in that and I'm so touched by every story that you shared! Thank you so much for being here! To wrap up, when you think about the phrase choosing your reflection, what does that mean personally to you?

Taylor: Wow, you start with a banger and you end with one as well! So choosing your reflection, I think É it's É when I look in the mirror, who do I see and who am I in that moment, I'd like my outsides to match my insides. So thus the big change in wedding dresses. And neither was right or wrong. But my outsides matched my insides and it changes the way we feel. And I É at least for me it does. 

But I love that you say choosing because it is a choice. Because there are days that if I don't choose to wash my curls or shower for that matter, you know, IÕm like, ÒWow, isn't this great to be in cozy pants!Ó And it is until day four of cozy pants when they're walking around by themselves and my ponytailÕs gone sideways. And I look in the mirror and I'm like ÒNot loving this!Ó So it's such a deeper connection to who we really are. 

And I'm not saying cozy pants are bad. I'm in some right now. But I really like that, you know, I think our É how we show ourselves to the world is a pretty good reflection of how we feel. And, you know, on the flip side of that there are times where I don't feel so hot and if I change the way I look on the outside just a little bit -- and it really goes into self-care -- but it often will change the way I feel. So I think it's a É it's a É it goes both ways.

Lauren: I think that's an amazing answer! I'm also wearing comfy pants, so I'm with you!