CHOOSING YOUR REFLECTION
TITLE: The Leader in your Life
DURATION: 32:59

Getting married is an event that holds a different meaning for everyone. For some, itÕs based on religious traditions, and for others itÕs a validation of an earlier choice they made to live with that special someone they love.Ê

Hi, IÕm Lauren, and welcome to Choosing Your Reflection; a series of discussions that reflect upon the reasons we have for choosing our wedding day outfits.Ê Our guests are diverse, but they all share a common journey.Ê

As they share their stories, theyÕll help us unravel the mystique that exists around choosing that special outfit, and what they learned about themselves along the way.

Lauren: Today we have Gwenno Dafydd. She is a leadership and master public speaking coach, and sheÕs also the author of Stand Up & Sock it to them Sister - Funny, Feisty Females, a book about female stand-up comics. SheÕs also is a performer for a one woman show called Passionate about Piaf. 

I'm so happy to have her here today to talk about her unique wedding outfit and her wedding story, but also to talk about how she helps brides take leadership in their lives. Welcome Gwenno! So I would love to know, how did you meet your partner?

Gwenno: I met my partner back in 1981. I was living in Belgium at the time and I had met somebody on a boat when I was coming back to Britain. And IÕd invited her to stay for some time in my tiny, tiny flat in Brussels. And she narrowly avoided being taken away by the Moonies. And she was so grateful she said, ÒLet's go for a trip to the carnival in Cologne.Ó So we hitched up there and I took my guitar with me. 

I had two careers then which I've always had. I've always had my performing and I've always had my educational knowledge sharing. So in the day I would be teaching English as a foreign language to places like the Spanish Chamber of Commerce and banks and Dow Corning in Holland, and in the evenings then I would go and sing in restaurants. 

So I took my guitar with me and I went up to Cologne with the intention of busking and we were staying in a youth hostel. And this woman and I, Sue, we went out for the evening intending to have some fun. And directly opposite the youth hostel there was a little pub. And there were these lovely two boys standing outside. They said, ÒOh, come and have a drink with us.Ó We said ÒYes. Why not?Ó I walked into the pub, and I saw my future partner standing there and I fell madly in love with him. So that was back in February 1981.

Lauren: How did you know that you had fallen in love with him? How did that unfurl?

Gwenno: Well, I suppose it's the usual stuff, the flutterbyes in your stomach, the feeling that we connected on an emotional level and an intellectual level. And just É he was really dishy as well and so suppose I É I fell in lust with him really initially! 

But we eventually lived together in Belgium for quite some time. Then he had to go into his military service in Belgium because he was a Belgian national. Although we met in Germany, he had gone to Belgium to play in a brass band. So he went and did his military service then he went to Algeria to work. I came back to Britain because my brother was dying of Hodgkin's disease. And so I was here for a whilst he was in Algeria. 

We were apart, it was very, very tough. And we sort of broke up. But we found it very difficult to live without each other, and came back together again in 1989. So that would have been ooh, 30 years ago, 31 years ago.

Lauren: So then what was the deciding factor to get married and where did you want to get married? Clearly, there are multiple countries involved. How did you narrow down that decision once you had decided to get married?

Gwenno: Well, my mother sent me a really lovely card, when we had been together for 25 years É so that would have been 2006. She sent a really beautiful card, which obviously cost her quite a bit of money, which was beaded on the front which said 25 years. 

And then I thought, ÒWhy didn't I want to get married?Ó And I couldn't remember because I'd already said no, I wasn't going to get married till I was at least 30. But by this point, I was nearly 50 so I couldn't remember why. So it was just basically by that time, I think it was just we wanted to have a party. We'd been together for a long time. So we just thought, ÒYeah, okay, let's do it.Ó 

And when I grew up I wasn't particularly religious but I had to go to chapel every Sunday because we lived in the chapel house which was next to the chapel. But after chapel every Sunday without fail I would go down to a place called Pwllderi, where there was Youth Hostel. Either I'd run over there or I would cycle over there and then I would go down right down the cliffs to the beach where there would be seals and I would sing with them. And it was literally perched on top of a cliff with the most beautiful and stunning scenery all around it.  

And I always said to people, ÒWell I'm never going to get married unless I can get married in Pwll Deri.Ó  Years roll on and there has been legislation in Britain, I think probably about 20 years ago, which said that you could get married anywhere. So I made inquiries and I found out that you could get married in Pwllderi in the youth hostel.  It was going to cost a lot of money but I'd already said ÒI'm not getting married anywhere but Pwllderi.Ó So that's how it happened.

Lauren: It sounds absolutely beautiful!

Gwenno: It was! It was really beautiful!

Lauren: Considering you had this beautiful landscape in front of you, did you take that as inspiration for your outfit or did you have an outfit in mind before then? 

Gwenno: Well, I love being in the sea, so whatever it was going to be it had to have some sort of a sea theme. And I didn't like white because I'm quite a tomboy -- used to get white things really dirty -- so white was out of the question. And being a 50-year-old virgin was absolutely out of the equation really because by that point we'd had a daughter. So white was not a color that I wanted to have. 

And my favourite colour is turquoise, like the sea. So my mother and I went looking for things. And I am also quite a dramatic person so I wanted something that was different and stood out and was not É well I don't like the word normal, nobody's normal. But I just wanted something that was quite glamorous, which was really me. And I found it in a little shop in a place called Newcastle Emlyn which is in the middle of nowhere. But it had a really beautiful shop called Ededa J.

So that's where we went hunting for a wedding dress. And I found this beautiful turquoise wedding dress which showed off my cleavage, which by that point I finally had got one. At the age of 50 I'd managed to get a cleavage, which was alright. So it was beautiful and it had a long tail like a mermaid and it also had sort of little, little sparkly things right down the front. 

Lauren: Do you think that there's sort of a connection between you and mermaids? You are a performer, you sing, and mermaids also have that sort of musical quality to them. Have you ever considered that as well?

Gwenno: Yes, I think that was very, very important because there are tales of mermaids. Where I grew up there is a beach and apparently a mermaid came to land there. She was taken by a local farmer who insisted that they get married. And she put a curse on the farmer saying that no one was going to be born in that farmhouse. And that actually was the case for 150 years. And the person who was born in the farmhouse, he had learning difficulties. 

Welsh mythology is full of fairies and mermaids. And, you know, it's a very romantic way of looking at life. It wasn't a mermaidÕs tail, per se, but it had a trail. So but it looked from the back, it was just beautiful. It really was stunning, very low cut and it made the most of my assets as it were!

Lauren: Well, it sounds gorgeous! The story you just told about, you know, the mermaid being sort of captured and cursing people, I mean, that sort of speaks to the fact that most women don't really do well being told what to do and how to do it. And I think that parallels really great with you sort of saying, ÒI'm not gonna wear a white dress, there's no reason for me to wear a white dress.Ó You know why follow a tradition if it doesn't fit the mold for who I am? 

Gwenno: Well I heard a brilliant expression yesterday. And it's ÒStrong women don't do well in cages.Ó And that really spoke to me because I thought, ÒYeah!Ó And I am a strong woman and I always have been a strong woman. Strong willed. You know, I broke in a horse when I was 14 years of age. You know, growing up in the area where I grew up, you have to get on with things, you know? If I said to my mother, ÒI'm boredÓ she would just say, ÒGo out and climb some trees! Go out and, you know, conquer some rocks!Ó You know, the environment where I grew up was very, very, very formative in my character and my personality and I think it gave me the courage to be who I am. 

And I think that one of the great things about nowadays is that women are breaking away from that stereotypical white dress scenario. They're allowing their own personalities to come through. Because I think that all of those ideas about white weddings, it was to do with virginity in the first place. So I think we can move away from that stereotypical idea and convention.

And also if you consider the whole process of organizing a wedding, you know? In my sister's time it would have been my mother who organized my sister's wedding. My sister had a white wedding with all of the trappings and everything, whereas I organized my wedding and by that time, I was a, you know, I wasn't a young virginous bride. I was someone who had a life so I had all of these skills.

But I like to see young women who are actually organizing it themselves. And I think one of the most important things is for them to realize that these are transferable skills. What they are doing is they are project managing a huge project. They have to get the venue, they have to get the timings, they have to get the caterers. And they've got to make sure that the wine is the right wine, they've got to send out invitations. All the timing is so crucial. 

So do you know, what would be really, really helpful is if these women realized what they're doing and how fantastically skilled they are to be able to do these things and to really transfer these skills into their own careers.

When I was going to school, I was going to be a physical education teacher. I had a problem with my knees so it meant that I couldn't become a PE teacher. However, bright girls in school, when I was in school in the 70s, either became nurses or teachers.

There was one young woman in school who became a doctor and everybody was sort of, really ÒWow, Isn't she amazing!Ó She was a lovely, lovely woman, and very bright. But there were very little choices for the rest of us who were bright. 

And I do feel that, thank goodness for that, young women nowadays are able to make those decisions about their careers. They're able to make those decisions about what sort of a wedding they're going to have. They're able to break the conventions. They've seen wonderful role models saying ÒI'm not going to do this. I'm going to do this my wayÓ which is really, really crucial I think.

Lauren: 100% agree. Absolutely. I don't think I could agree with you more.

Gwenno: Well that's really good because you're a young woman. Because let's not forget, we have the wedding and we have the marriage. Those are two entirely separate things. The marriage should be a lifelong proposition. The wedding is one day of the year when it's ÒThe Day.Ó It's called ÒThe Big Day.Ó 

We all know what ÒThe Big DayÓ is. The big day is when that woman will be the centre of attention. And women are not very, very good when they're younger at being the centre of attention. I've written a book about female stand-up comics, and so many of those women have started out being funny by being the class clown. 

I was a class clown. But very few girls are class clowns. Very few girls like to have the attention on them unless they're gone to a girls school. Boys have no problem whatsoever. Boys like to have attention all the time from their teachers and from the people they mix with.

Lauren: Well societally I feel like women have been taught to not have the attention on them. They've been encouraged to be followers, whereas men have been encouraged to be leaders. And I think it's great that that's NOT being encouraged as much anymore in society. Or at least slowly is not being encouraged anymore.

Gwenno: It is. And that's a great thing. And I think the more we encourage women to think of themselves as being leaders of their own lives, that's where they start making really positive choices for themselves. And I do see your generation doing that. ItÕs called self-belief. When they go into the workplace, when they're applying for positions of power, they will have more self-belief by then. 

And if you look at leadership positions throughout the world, especially now É let's take COVID for example. The countries where COVID has gone rampant and out of control are those that have been led by men. The countries that have done extremely well during this COVID crisis are the ones where women have been leading.
If you look at Jacinda Ardern (New ZealandÕs P.M.), you've got Germany, you've got Scotland, you've got so many of the Scandinavian countries that are doing fantastically well and the reason for that is we have different leadership styles. 
And I think nowadays women are more confident in their own abilities to develop these new styles of leadership without having to follow the male style of leadership, which is the only style we used to see. Whereas now we can see that the way Jacinda Ardern does things with humility, with compassion, with kindness, that has had really extremely good outcomes. So I think it's a great thing that women are really starting to become more confident in their own abilities.

Lauren: I have a question from your perspective now as a coach. How would you help someone or encourage someone who is struggling as a woman or a female identifying person to take leadership in their lives if they're having trouble? Maybe they're shy, maybe they're uncomfortable, maybe they're surrounded by people who have encouraged them to NOT be leaders in their own lives. How would you help them sort of transition to a leadership role?

Gwenno: Every single person I work with, every outcome is different. You know, everything is bespoke. So I would start with them to see where their limitations were. I don't like using the word weaknesses, but some people are limited in what they're able to achieve. And we would work on those issues. We also look at the strengths. Strengths and limitations. And I would try and build them up in those areas.

I have some fantastic methods, which work extremely well. And some people, they have different elements of limitations. They may not be very good at delegating, or time management, or being assertive, or possibly they don't like presenting themselves in front of a ZOOM camera, or they don't like doing presentations, or they feel that they cannot apply for a post because they don't have the qualifications that are necessary. 

I often use a piece of research carried out in the 1990s in Cardiff, which is where I'm based. At that time I was the Campaign Manager (Wales) for Opportunity 2000, which was an organization trying to develop women in leadership. And the Welsh office had sent out a list of criteria for people applying for positions as county councillors. The outcome of that was they found that men would look at the list of criteria and say, ÒI can do seven of those, I'm going to apply.Ó Women would look at the same list and say, ÒI can ONLY do seven of those jobs, I will NOT apply.Ó 

So I would try and shift their focus on realizing that it's their attitude that needs to change but also some of their skill sets. So I would work with them on their skill set. And I can work now worldwide. I have been doing that for some time. One of the things I have developed during lockdown is a fool-proof method that I can work with anybody anywhere within the time frames that separate us, obviously. I can coach people on public speaking, which is often a skill set that women have difficulty with. So I would say to them come and see me.

Lauren: Thank you for sharing that because I think it's so important. And sticking still on this topic of leadership and confidence in yourself and sort of developing those skills, you also, as you said are a public speaking coach. Brides and grooms and people who are getting married, it's a lot of public speaking rolled into that day, that big day. Do you have any tips for brides and grooms like maybe a few that that help when they're on stage for that day?

Gwenno: Well I also do coaching for bridal speeches, and you can't just give a couple of tips because essentially, this is the big day. This is one that's going to be videoed, this is one that's going to be looked up by the grandchildren in years to come. You want to make sure that you do a really good job. 

So what I do with people is they come to me and they need about five, maybe six sessions. And what we will do in all of those sessions is we will start off with a couple of ideas that they will be throwing around. And then we will bring that into a fully-fledged script of ideas of stories. 

There are also traditions that need to be included in the speeches. One of the traditions is that it will be the bride's father who will make a speech. There will be the best manÕs speech. But recently I've also been doing sister of the bride speech, best-woman speeches. So again, women are starting to say ÒI want to do this.Ó 

And when I got married what was really funny, I just made speeches all day long. If I felt I wanted to say something then I just grabbed the mic and what was funny was in the reception, the woman who ran the event, she said ÒI've never come across a bride who has made so many speeches!Ó And why not? It's your day, get on with it! You know you're the centre of attention, you want to make a speech? Make a speech!

I'm very good at making off the cuff speeches, but most people are not. It really is a skill that you have to develop. I've been a professional performer since 1980. So that's 40 years. But I've actually been performing since I was three years of age. So that is now 60 years. So I'm pretty good at what I do. 

But what I would do: bullet points, script, then we would fill it out with a bit of humour, some good stories about the bride or the groom or whatever, wishes for the future, thanks to everybody. I would then teach them mic technique, how to use a PA system, how to engage with the audience, how to use eye contact, how to find your volume, and all of those things which will make it an absolutely amazing experience. 

And I did this with a client in Los Angeles. I met her several years ago and I did some coaching with her when she was back in Los Angeles. We just did all of the coaching by Skype at the time. We practiced using a hairbrush as a microphone. So you know, you just need to know how to switch it on, where to hold it, all of those things are crucial for making sure that the day goes really well. 

Lauren: Today as a young woman myself, leadership in the wedding process for women typically is what happens. You are forced, almost, into a leadership role as a woman getting married, which is so interesting considering that most of the time men are taking leadership roles historically. So I would love to know your take on that because it's sort of a unique turn, but it also might be for the wrong reasons.

Gwenno: People get married at different ages. But I'm of a generation that sort of got married or got partnered by the time they were 35. I've seen that going back down again, so that people are getting married younger again. So I think it could be to do with the fact that one of the biggest things that knocks women's confidence is having children, because up until that point you don't have to worry about balancing all of those roles.

And I think that there is a certain level of equality in the workplace up until a certain point, and that point, I believe, is motherhood. It affects you financially because you take time off, it affects you emotionally, it affects you confidence-wise, it affects you on so many different levels. 

You know, you said something which I would challenge and say women take leadership. It's not that women take leadership, it's that men step back because they can't be bothered to do the work. They cannot be bothered to do the work. ÒOh, that's women's work.Ó So again, there's that issue of ÒOh you just get on with it, I'll turn up on the dayÓ which is very nice indeed for them, isn't it because it's a phenomenal amount of work. It is a phenomenal amount of work!

Lauren: And I feel like a lot of a lot of people they've been almost left alone, stranded to just figure it out. And some people don't have the resources or the tools to move forward. I have a degree in production planning so thankfully, I have sort of a qualification for it. So I'm okay. But not everyone does. Most people go into this process totally blind.

Gwenno: Can I just say something? It's called the emotional load. You may have heard about emotional load. Well, if you were a mother it would be ÒWhere are my socks mum? Where did you put the keys?Ó And then you have to remember it's your É itÕs your grandmother's birthday. 

The emotional load is all of those things that a man will shift on to the woman. And you if you want to have a better future I'm suggesting to you now that you actually start forcing him to do a bit now, otherwise the emotional load will be all yours by the time you settle down and have a family because it becomes a habit. Don't let it become a habit.

ItÕs always been the case in my life. You're supposed to remember all of these things, like where they put their car keys, where they put that file that you know nothing at all about. So, you know, start training him now!

Lauren: It can also be a time to like, encourage people to step forward and take their leadership roles and, and enhance their skills in that field. So it's É it's almost like a fun little test!

Gwenno: Well, this will improve your delegation skills, that's for sure! And just say ÒYou have to organize this. I'm doing this, you do that.Ó You know, but the tricky bit is, and this is where I think a lot of women are accused of nagging. Nagging is really repetitive behaviour because one does not get the result one wants. The language that we use is fascinating, really, because would a man nag? No, it's a woman only word. 

And a lot of the words that we use around leadership, there is a very definite split between men and women and the language that we use to describe our behaviours. A woman would nag, whereas a man would just be assertive. Same thing. It's just that, you know, one has outcomes and the other one doesn't! So, you know, be aware of those things. Be aware of the language that you use around some of these issues.

Lauren: Persistence for men is, you know, formidable and persistence with women is annoying. Obviously, we want to change the perception of persistence in women. 

Gwenno: Yes!

Lauren: You mentioned your book a little bit earlier but I would love for you to talk a little bit more about female stand ups, if you don't mind.

Gwenno: I would love to! I always love talking about female stand ups. It started as a Master's degree but it started before then, because I've had a passion for comedy since I was a kid. There was nothing I loved more than to make people laugh. It was like a magical thing. 

And I realized then, what, you know, that I was É I was the only girl that was a class clown. There was nobody else faffing about and having a laugh, apart from the boys. And when I went to college, I went to be a physical education teacher but then had to change my course. 

During my 20s and early 30s, mid 30s, I was working two separate professions: one of being in education and doing supply teaching, and the other one being in performance and broadcasting and writing and being creative. And when I got to my mid 30s I realized that I wasn't going to be able to continue with my creative life in the way that I had done because by that pointI had a daughter, my husband was working away, I had to find something else that I could do. 

So I did my Master's degree in women's studies because I intended to make films about women. I wanted to be a director of projects about women. As a result of doing the Master's degree, we had to choose an area of society where women were not very prolific, so women working in a male dominated industry. And I decided I was going to do stand-up comedy because I didn't know very much about it. And although I'd had loads of television roles and one role in a film as comedy characters, I didn't have the guts to go out and do stand-up comedy. So I wanted to find out more about it. 

So that's where the book started. I interviewed five people in 1996 and it took me 20 years (to complete the book and bring it to market). So we talked about resilience and persistence -- I got that in buckets because I thought that there was a gap in the market. And what the gap was was an understanding, a real clear understanding of what the glass ceiling is and how these women had broken through it. 

So I looked at all sorts of aspects such as working at night, which is dangerous for women. They don't like working in environments where they may be raped on the way home. The way that men network, golf clubs, etc. It's all very predominantly male, and especially here in Wales. Men network in rugby matches, and that's what, you know, as an incentive for business, they will say, ÒWe'll give you a box, a debenture in the rugby StadiumÓ and it'll all be men, and they'll all be talking business. There's no space for women there. 

I interviewed 94 people worldwide who were involved in the comedy industry, including 65 women who are female stand-up comics, and I got the oldest, the youngest, the shortest, the first Muslim, the first Indian. I got a really, really huge database of different women with disabilities, with horrific experiences. But then they brought those experiences and brought them into their stand-up comedy. So it was an examination of the glass ceiling through the prism of my passion, which is stand-up comedy. 

Lauren: What do you think you learned from the experience in that sort of framework of getting married, and the life that you live now and have been living? And what advice would you give to anyone who is going to go through this?

Gwenno: I would say that the most important thing is to delegate as much as you possibly can. And also to recognize that those skills, as I said before, are transferable skills. And although you may not want to write them down on your CV, be very, very aware of them because they are transferable skills. 

We often do not give acknowledgement or credence to those things that we have done because they're not in our professional life, which is ridiculous really because, you know, it is a big thing and you are project managing all of it. So give yourself the kudos for having done that successfully. 

I have to say that I enjoyed being married, but I think people have a tendency to grow apart. And if that doesn't work, it's not a failure on your part not to be able to sustain that marriage because I am now unfortunately, going through a divorce. I didn't particularly want to because I wanted to be married for my entire life. 

But I will be happy for the rest of my life, I know that, whatever happens, because I am determined. I'm very determined. And whether organizing a wedding was part of that process or not, I do not know. But I do know that it did give me a little bit of extra self-confidence. ÒI could do this!Ó

It wasnÕt a piece of cake, it was very complex. But they're challenges that we have overcome. So, you know, I have no qualms at all. If I meet the right person in the next few years I would consider getting married, but I would have a prenuptial lined up beforehand I think so you don't have to go through all that messy, messy money business. 

But no, I think it's a great state to be in. I preferred being married than not being married because I think it gives you a certain sense of security. It certainly gave our daughter a sense of security. So I think it's, as you say in French chacun son gožt (each to his own). I liked being married, I loved being married and I would welcome getting married again if that were the case. If the conditions were right and if I met the right person, why not?

Lauren: And thatÕs you choosing to be happy. That's you choosing to be the leader in your life. 

Gwenno: Yes!

Lauren: And, and in essence, choosing your future and choosing your reflection, which is what our podcast is called. And it's these choices that are so important for us to make not only as people but as women to continue to make moving forward. And getting a habit to doing that for the rest of our lives, and hopefully for the rest of history.

Gwenno: Indeed. You know, when I was growing up, I had some great role models. I had some very powerful women in my family. My great grandmother had been left a widow in her 40s and she had to run a farm on her own. My grandmother was also left a widow with seven children. And the other grandmother. 

But what I'm saying is that, you know, we need to have role models. And if we want to break away from this white wedding thing, which some people might want to do. If we have more and more role models of people who are having weddings that are in youth hostels with turquoise wedding dresses, then so be it! Be yourself at any cost! Any other way youÕre lost! ThatÕs my lifetime motto. So É there you go!

Lauren: If anyone is interested in reaching out to you, how can they get in touch with you?

Gwenno: They can get in touch with me on LinkedIn, obviously. But I have a website which is H-T-T-P-S, two dots, two forward slashes, GwennoDafydd.co.uk. That's G-W-E-N-N-O-D-A-F for Freddie, Y, double D, dot co, dot uk. 

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