Cultural Humility Ep 3
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[00:01:04] Treasyri Williams Wood: Welcome again to the podcast, many series, Culturally Speeching presented by speech therapy, pd. com. Thank you so much for joining us for our 3rd episode, cultural humility through diversity and equity. And we are going to have a great chat today. An overview of our learning objectives by the end of this chat, you will be able to understand the principles of cultural humility and its significance and promoting diversity and equity and clinical practices to be able to identify strategies, right?
[00:01:41] To implement cultural humility. And in those interactions that you have with diverse populations. And finally, just to be able to recognize the impact that cultural humility can have on achieving equitable treatment outcomes in clinical settings. Now, this episode is offered for 0. 1 ASHA CEUs. I am your host, Dr.
[00:02:03] Treasyri Williams Wood. I am a speech language pathologist and clinical research consultant. That's it. I own my own consulting firm in the South side of Chicago. Now here are the financial and non financial disclosures. I, Dr. Treasyri Williams Wood, am the host of this podcast and receive compensation from speechtherapypd.
[00:02:23] com. And I am also a CEO and owner of my own company for which I receive a salary as well as Lingraphica. My nine financial disclosures are that I serve as member at large in speech language pathology on the American Speech and Hearing Association, ASHA Board of Directors. I am so excited. To welcome Dr Valerie Borum, and she is going to be such a treat for us this evening.
[00:02:55] I told her earlier that I don't think I've ever been. I'm so excited to read someone's bio. And so she is joining us from Toronto, Canada, where she currently serves as the director of the School of Social Work at Toronto Metropolitan University. And she has been in that capacity since January, 2020.
[00:03:19] So I'm sure you have a story to tell if you joined a university in January, 2020 as a social work director, that could probably be a whole Oh, another episode as a social work practitioner, she directed not one, but two programs supervising social work and human service professionals, serving persons with intersecting identities, like disability, race, ethnicity, gender, Deafness.
[00:03:46] Dr. Borm's research and scholarship focus on the role of ethno culture as a protective and promotive factor in health, mental health, and disabilities with attention to populations of African descent. She studies the intersection of disabilities, Deafness and ethno cultural with attention to black African American and Afro Latin X, black Hispanic families with deaf and hard of hearing children music to our ears, right?
[00:04:19] She also studies the intersection of whiteness and anti blackness, anti black racism. She incorporates womaness and Afrocentric approaches in her research, scholarship, and educational pedagogy. Dr. Borum completed her postdoctoral studies at the University of Rochester, New York. She received her PhD in social work from Howard University School of Social Work, and she received the Esther Otley Fellowship, a one year dean's internship for one female student who most exemplifies qualities of leadership and humanity while at Howard.
[00:04:58] Dr. Bourne received her Master's of Social Work from Gallaudet University, and all of her instruction was in American Sign Language, as we SOPs know. She received her BA in psychology with minors in biology and philosophy from Mundelein Women's College at Loyola University in Chicago. Her unwavering commitment to her research is evident in her role as a research collaborator and consultant with Laurent Clerc National Deaf Education Research Center at Gallaudet in Washington, D.
[00:05:30] C. The study focuses on the advocacy efforts among families of color with deaf and hard of hearing children and their advocacy efforts related to their children's educational, linguistic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations. She actively seeks external funding for her research, and she was part of the study.
[00:05:50] Born and raised in Chicago, Illinois, where I am coming to you from right now, her personal journey has deeply influenced her research and academic pursuits. Dr. Borm does receive an honorarium for speech therapy. All of the university has no non financial disclosures. And so with that, I'm going to take a deep breath because that was a mouthful, but it does not even do you justice.
[00:06:16] Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Dr. Valerie. Thank you for joining 
[00:06:19] Valerie Borum: Thank you so much. I should add that actually I've stepped down as director. I am going to be on sabbatical for 1 year. To focus on all 
[00:06:30] Treasyri Williams Wood: of that research that I just, oh, congratulations. It sounds like a radical that is well earned, right? 
[00:06:38] Valerie Borum: Yeah. Long time coming.
[00:06:40] Treasyri Williams Wood: Well, I am so excited to have you. I know we've talked a lot. And if those of you who are coming back and if this is not, if this is your, if you're coming back for another episode, drop that in the chat. I love to see people who are coming back for another one. You know, we're pretty informal. I like to call these fireside chats.
[00:06:57] But we do delve into some pretty meaty topics. And so one question I always like to ask guests is give us a definition of cultural humility and explain how it differs from cultural competence in the context of diversity and equity. 
[00:07:15] Valerie Borum: Okay, I think I'll start with cultural competence, since that was sort of like a framework that was featured prior to cultural humility.
[00:07:25] And like a general definition what you'll find in the literature is cultural competence Is a means of attending to clients, culturally diverse backgrounds, providing person centered care and reducing health disparities. Now, Glenn guy, 2024 defines cultural competence as understanding, communicating with.
[00:07:49] And effectively interacting with people across cultures. It encompasses being aware of one's own worldview, developing positive attitudes towards cultural differences, and gaining knowledge of different cultural practices and worldviews. Cultural competency then is not just about acquiring the knowledge, it's about applying this knowledge and, and applying it and understanding it in real world interactions which can foster an inclusive and respectful environment.
[00:08:23] Now, cultural humility, on the other hand, is a lifelong process of self reflection and self critique. It requires us to acknowledge our own biases and the limitations of our knowledge about other cultures. It's about maintaining an interpersonal stance that is other oriented in relation to aspects of cultural identity.
[00:08:47] So, while cultural competence focus on acquiring skills and knowledge and its systematic implementation, cultural humility emphasizes the importance of reflecting on one's beliefs and cultural identities. 
[00:09:04] Treasyri Williams Wood: Love that. I love that. And so what would you say in your experience are the core principles of cultural humility?
[00:09:15] Valerie Borum: I would say that basically, it's about self reflection, self critique because those are important for understanding one's own biases and limitations. I would Actually critique even these definitions, if I could, if I can, if I may. Is it okay if I, I like to critique those definitions. 
[00:09:39] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yes. Yes.
[00:09:40] Valerie Borum: There are standard definitions, and this is what we're working from. And like I said, I gave definitions that in the literature that are actually as of 2024 as of today. 
[00:09:53] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. Yeah. 
[00:09:55] Valerie Borum: I always say, okay, what is missing and what's missing from these definitions is an interrogation of whiteness and hegemony.
[00:10:09] Treasyri Williams Wood: I don't even know what hegemony means. Hold on. You got to break it down for us. Domination. Okay. I like that. That's going to be my word of the week. So. 
[00:10:18] Valerie Borum: And what it does is it sets up BIPOC communities, black, indigenous, and people of color as Somehow another the others, right? And so these communities are then other eyes.
[00:10:35] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:10:36] Valerie Borum: they're scrutinized and they're scrutinized in almost a manner as if. Trying to understand these cultures, it becomes a burden of knowing. 
[00:10:47] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. 
[00:10:48] Valerie Borum: Yeah. Right. Or what it even means to be American. Somehow another we are outside of what it means to be American. And we know that what it means to be American.
[00:11:01] Is somehow another simultaneously associated with being white and we know that what is simultaneously being associated with being white is also being human. Yeah. So, while we're talking about cultural competence, or while we're talking about cultural humility, we're not talking about. Why these groups are on the outside?
[00:11:26] Why are these groups minoritized? How is it that these groups are other eyes? Yeah, and how is it that whiteness becomes the standard for which all other groups are somehow another understood as being outside of their full humanity. 
[00:11:43] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. 
[00:11:44] Valerie Borum: Right. And so when we understand, like, how groups are, otherwise, we have to bring in history.
[00:11:51] What happened that these groups that are now considered others. You know, and so BIPOC groups are otherwise basically as a result of oppression, marginalization, racism, colonial structures such as education, housing, health care, the criminal justice system, you know, et cetera. And so Gordon Pond talks about how, and, and Summer Kota they both speak about how.
[00:12:22] Cultural competence at 1 point became sort of the new racism 
[00:12:27] Treasyri Williams Wood: really in our field, right? And speech pathology, you know, when we studied, it was like, you need to be culturally competent and it was almost like, and it's still to some degree. It's like a box to check. And I'm sure that's not. That's probably not unique to the field of speech pathology.
[00:12:43] I'm sure in social work, it's very similar. So how does, how, how did it go from being this thing that was this bad negative thing to now being this thing that is the, the box to check the peak of the mountaintop to get to in clinical work? 
[00:12:58] Valerie Borum: Because there's an assumption that BIPOC groups. In terms of how do we address disparities?
[00:13:06] Because if we're saying disparities are based in cultural competence, in some ways, it's almost like we're saying that my culture is what places me at risk. But my culture doesn't place me at risk. What places me or my culture and my people at risk is again, racism colonialism marginalization other rising people who are somehow another considered different.
[00:13:38] Because we keep using whiteness as the standard, right? And I think when we talk about communicating across cultures, I was just about to sign communicating 
[00:13:52] Treasyri Williams Wood: as there's an SLP, we, you are welcome to sign everything. 
[00:13:58] Valerie Borum: Because I'm working with the research team, and I'm working with deaf researchers and, you know, it's just like, I have to, I have, it's a worldview switching.
[00:14:06] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, exactly. 
[00:14:07] Valerie Borum: I have to get back to. Yeah. So, yeah, and so it's, it's. See, when we talk about, like, it's, it's like communicating across cultures. 1 is not really able to communicate across culture unless 1 understands 1's own culture. Right? And so what it is, is that we have. Whiteness, which is a culture, a Euro Western Euro centric sort of Anglo kind of cultural worldview that dominates and that's institutionalized.
[00:14:41] It's institutionalized in such a way that it becomes unrecognizable. 
[00:14:46] Treasyri Williams Wood: It's just the norm and there's an option. It's considered the, the standard. 
[00:14:54] Valerie Borum: The standard. And so you have many whites who. Cannot be culturally competent because they don't have any attachment or knowledge of their own culture because whiteness is hidden and we need to make it visible.
[00:15:14] And I think we need for people to understand some of the elements, the deep structures. You know, Eurocentric sort of ideas and worldviews so that not only that we understand who we are, but we understand. Who they are, but, you know, what's interesting thing is, start well, he speaks about, and he's a white philosopher, and he says, you know, race consciousness.
[00:15:44] Is basically forced on, for example, African Americans, he says, you know, we just won't let you forget that you're black. 
[00:15:53] Treasyri Williams Wood: Frederick Douglass talked about that, right? That secondary consciousness, and I'm sure most non white folks. Or, you know, who identify as anything differently will say that there's the, there's you and then there's the consciousness of your other ism, whether it be by pod, whether it be across the gender spectrum, whether it be anything different, that's that second consciousness and you carry that with you wherever you go.
[00:16:20] It's, it's almost like you're twin. Yeah, and it's and you don't realize that there are there's a whole culture of people who don't have that. But I've read. Yes, Frederick. 
[00:16:31] Valerie Borum: That was so interesting. There's a whole culture because, you know, he says that. Because we basically our, our, our culture is presented as neutral as, as, as the standard and is basically hidden even from them.
[00:16:49] He says that whites are the last group to become conscious on their own. They can only be conscious in a situation in which blacks become conscious about their race. Thus giving them sort of instruction to understand even who they are themselves. So, yeah, you know, cultural competence and cultural humility.
[00:17:12] I mean, I can be culturally sensitive. 
[00:17:14] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:17:15] Valerie Borum: but it's going to really reduce the disparities. 
[00:17:18] Treasyri Williams Wood: No, right. And how does that lack of understanding, you know, because one, one thing I've learned and I'm sure you've learned this as a social work practitioner is that you do have to, if you are, if you're not a self actualized human, it is so difficult to, or if you're not on that, that intention.
[00:17:39] In terms of and I saw this when I'm sure you see this and teach graduate teaching when you're training practitioners, you know, and bell hooks talks about this, right? Like education as the, the, the act of freedom and how you have to be on a path to self actualization and understanding your culture and who you are in order to provide services for others.
[00:18:00] So I'd love to hear about some of your experiences because you did it. You know, you, you are you know, social work practitioner, how you've been able to grapple with that 
[00:18:10] Valerie Borum: to grapple with 
[00:18:12] Treasyri Williams Wood: learning self actualizing as a, a woman of color learning your culture, learning your culture as it relates to whiteness, as it relates to being in a a system that is set up unfortunately to oppress, right.
[00:18:27] While also providing these services. 
[00:18:32] Valerie Borum: You know, it's when I was getting my PhD and my dissertation, I, I focused on African American and Afro Latina black, Hispanic families of deaf and hard of hearing children, because I get my masters from Gallaudet. And all of the, the literature basically was focused on white families, white hearing families with deaf and hard of hearing children, or white deaf families with deaf children.
[00:18:58] And there was nothing pretty much in my education that. Sort of helped me to, you know, understand the differences because, you know, I kept thinking, wait a 2nd, you know, all of this is so white. And so that's what sort of led me to do the research, you know, and this was like, 1 of the 1st studies to actually look at African American hearing families.
[00:19:20] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:19:20] Valerie Borum: part of hearing children and I use frameworks. That pulled me in and centered me in culture in history, inherited Afro centricity, womanism. And so those are frameworks allowed me to sort of like, span the, the, the deep structures of culture. And worldview, and it just is, for example, like in in Eurocentric ways of, of knowing, in terms of epistemology.
[00:19:54] Like how do you come to know what you know? And it's through counting and measuring Mm-Hmm. numbers are meaningful. So you deaf based on your, the, the decibel loss. Right? Right. What, what your DB loss is and within African American families. It is not based on, you know, it's a fact of way of knowing it's the oral tradition is important.
[00:20:19] So how do families say whether someone is. Like, fully deaf or hard of hearing, it's not by your loss. It's about how and when you use your voice. So, if you use your voice. Then you considered hard of hearing, even though your loss may be profound. 
[00:20:41] Treasyri Williams Wood: Wow. 
[00:20:42] I never knew that. 
[00:20:44] Valerie Borum: Right because of the, the, the heritage, the African heritage and the importance of the oral tradition and within the field of deafness, it's not quite understood why African Americans still rely.
[00:20:57] On the oral tradition, 
[00:20:59] Treasyri Williams Wood: yeah, 
[00:20:59] Valerie Borum: and part of that. Is that, you know, African Americans and I say African Americans because I'm African American. But also because of the unique. Experiences of African Americans went through enslavement, segregation, Jim Crow that African Americans have been able to retain.
[00:21:21] Right, African tradition, so what folks don't realize is that all of these barriers. To so called integration actually helped to somehow solidify some of the African heritage that you see in African Americans today. And how do I sort of. Use this knowledge and working with, say, African American families, hearing families, and their deaf children in a school setting, having to explain.
[00:21:54] The importance of why African American deaf children are still using their voices. And why that is so important, because just because African American children are deaf. That doesn't mean they're no longer culturally African American, and that they don't grow up in African American communities. 
[00:22:13] Treasyri Williams Wood: Right, and that's that's just just made such a valid point that makes me think about the field of speech pathology.
[00:22:21] My training is in the hospitals, right? I've worked across the lifespan, but really a lot in the hospitals and. One thing we see where we also treat swallowing right dysphagia and you take I've seen so many times in skilled nursing facilities or rehab hospital. An elderly black person has a stroke.
[00:22:42] They're hospitalized. They're put on a modified diet. And for some reason, that means they stop being black. They just feed them food that they've never eaten their entire life. They. They evaluate them based on their ability to sustain nutrition and hydration. And then they, you know, everything is measured not by their true ability, but really by, are you able to eat these foods?
[00:23:07] And, you know, I've gone through this with my grandmother before who was hospitalized with dementia, who would not eat anything until we came and brought her soul food, until we brought her yams or plantains. And. Our ethnic cultural food before then they wanted to give her a feeding tube, right? Because they, she can't, but to your point, just because she's now a patient doesn't mean she stopped being black, right?
[00:23:32] It doesn't mean she stopped being an African American and doesn't mean she divested from her culture. So, what are some cult, what are some, excuse me, some practical strategies that you think clinicians can use to implement this type of awareness and humility when they interact with the clinic, with diverse populations?
[00:23:54] Valerie Borum: One of the most difficult ways of knowing in the United States is its resistance to understanding history. Many don't understand history. Many, you know, history, culture, language are not something that are necessarily even valued or understood in the United States. But I think that. In order to work with people, just not so much who are different from me, because if we're talking about, oh, these are people who are different for me, we're really talking about people who are different from so called the standard of whiteness.
[00:24:31] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:24:31] Valerie Borum: we have to interrogate that 1st and foremost. But I think understanding history, how did we get to this point? How do we get to the point of like, well, we need to understand cultural differences. We need to understand different ways of knowing different ways of being in different ways of doing.
[00:24:53] And how did I get to this point where I am within a particular culture? How do I understand myself in the context of culture? How do I understand? Because again, when we understand culture? For example, within a very Eurocentric worldview, Differences usually are, are, are correlated with deficiencies, with pathology, and that's because of the worldview, because the worldview is based in binary logic, right?
[00:25:30] It's, it's either or everything is sort of dichotomized, either you're black or you're white. And so when you're in between, It's like there's no even there's not even a language to really describe the nuances of that gray area. And see, this is what's institutionalize your male or female. And if I say, like, for example, I think I'm beautiful.
[00:25:54] Oh, what do you think? Somebody else is not beautiful. I never said that. Yep. But if you're coming from a worldview that is based in binary logic, of course, it's either or. 
[00:26:04] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:26:05] Valerie Borum: you can and see him from an Afro centric or an African American cultural worldview. It's both. And. 
[00:26:12] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, that's true. But you know, what's interesting is that don't you think the academy prepares us in that way when you look back?
[00:26:20] Right? When you look back to our training, I think about our training, a speech language pathologist. I mean, we probably had a thin hair of a bandwidth to think outside of anything. And so now you have, you know, we had to do that and think like that in order to survive. And then we, then we're at this point and we're thinking this isn't fit.
[00:26:41] Right. And how do we go 
[00:26:43] Valerie Borum: and that's why, when I speak about my Ph. D, I had psychological freedom because if I had to focus on a research study, using positivistic sort of measures and to try to quantify what we have not been able to qualify, I would have come out. Mentally challenged. 
[00:27:07] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, but that's a lot of our, our practitioners and I, I think social work is the same way, right? Because you practice social work with the masters. Right? And so. I'm not sure about social work, but for PhDs, it's very hard to get someone to go back and get their PhD, because there's not a big difference in pay.
[00:27:25] And then some people, you know, they're deterred from practicing sometimes, and it can be really complicated. And so then the question is, is that. You got your master's degree. That's what you got. And you want to be a great practitioner, but now you're in it. You're in the trenches, you're in the field, right?
[00:27:42] And you're putting together, like you said, this new world view, but also having to quickly turn around and apply it. And and I'm looking to the chat because I'm not sure if I'm just, like, shouting into the void, but I I'm wondering if anybody can relate to that who's actively practicing and trying to improve their cultural awareness and their, their introspection.
[00:28:08] So, if you, if you do, please. 
[00:28:10] Valerie Borum: There needs to be a paradigm shift, even from the time we start at this educational process, right? Because it's not going to be, we're not going to have an impact if I'm being taught to somehow other being white. If I am being taught, if there's a colonial script where the outcome is assimilation, right?
[00:28:31] And then that's when they're considered successful. Yeah, we've eradicated. Your culture and your understanding your ways of knowing and being in doing, which is actually a form of cultural genocide and then expect that we're going to all just somehow another become white and respond to whatever is considered appropriate culturally.
[00:28:57] For that white mindset and that white way of being. Yeah. Other than that, I'm considered problematic. Right and so I, you know, like I said, when I was in the master's program, I kept thinking this does not relate to to me or to to to African Americans. You know, it was just. 
[00:29:21] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:29:21] Valerie Borum: that's that's the training you graduate with an MSW 
[00:29:25] But yeah, I mean, being able to just center yourself and your people. Yeah, there's so much freedom in there. There's so much liberation. And then you have, like, an armor almost. 
[00:29:41] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:29:42] Valerie Borum: to really protect you against. These, like, other rising, like, if I didn't have this worldview, I would not be able to critique.
[00:29:53] This kind of information 
[00:29:55] Treasyri Williams Wood: commitment to that. Yeah, it's really important. And so how do you. So I think this is so important to talk about because I think as a practitioner, we always want to jump to the doing. We want to jump to the doing a lot. And so I love this. This is definitely a word for me, right?
[00:30:15] Because, you know, even though I do research, I have a doctorate, but at my heart, I'm a practitioner and I'm like, okay, so what am I do with that? What am I going to do with that? Wait, how can I take that to the bank and cash it? How can I make that into something? But what you're challenging us to do is to shift our worldview.
[00:30:34] Yes. And go, go inside and really challenge some of these worldviews and take a path of introspection, which I think means being comfortable with being uncomfortable. 
[00:30:48] Valerie Borum: Yes, it's like I have this here by this is actually a Jewish woman who wrote and you're the boss. 
[00:30:54] Treasyri Williams Wood: And I also want to encourage everyone to share how your reactions as well as your questions, because sometimes I know some of the things we have will not be questions. Oh, that's wonderful. 
[00:31:08] Valerie Borum: It's much better. Right? Yeah, it's much better. Well, you don't have to get the book. I'll try to actually give you the copy because of what I use of this is just where it talks about white culture and it's making whiteness visible.
[00:31:20] Well, It's when she, so she says in terms of white culture, because this was written in gosh, this was oh, what year was it? I mean, this was like in the 80s, 85, but still is relevant. She says, we believe in rugged individualism. 
[00:31:36] The individual is the primary unit. So when we're talking about cultural competency and culture humility, we're talking about the individual.
[00:31:45] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, ourselves, right? We're centering ourselves, even though we're giving. Patient centered care, we're still centering ourselves in that patient centered care. Right? 
[00:31:54] Valerie Borum: Exactly. And when we focus on the individual, guess what? We leave out the systems in which these individuals operate. 
[00:32:00] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. 
[00:32:02] Valerie Borum: Right, because much of what is experienced by by pod communities, it's not necessarily just on an individual level.
[00:32:10] Treasyri Williams Wood: It's not an interpersonal. It's not in...
[00:32:12] Valerie Borum: It's systemic. 
[00:32:13] Treasyri Williams Wood: And that's why no matter how many unconscious bias trainings you take people to as practitioners, it's not going to eradicate systemic racism. Right? 
[00:32:23] Valerie Borum: Exactly. Exactly. But if we're focusing on an individual, guess what? We don't have to talk about the systems.
[00:32:29] We don't have to talk about power. You don't have to talk about domination. Right? We don't have to even talk about whiteness. Right? And we believe in the protestant work ethic. Hard work brings success. You know, I remember Barack Obama once said something we were made for work or something. That's a, that's a, that's a worldview.
[00:32:57] Yeah, that my 9 to 5 or how many hours I put in that somehow another what even what we say constitutes work. And it's like, we are competitive. We strive to be number 1. Winning is everything. Keep that in mind. You know, this competition, particularly when you're talking about within institutions, you got to compete with one another.
[00:33:21] How do you then have an environment that is conducive to healing and to different ways of being, knowing and doing if everybody's competing with each other?
[00:33:35] Treasyri Williams Wood: One of the things I mean, I don't know if it's like this in social work. Our profession is so incredibly competitive. Is it like that in social work where we have to, we would have to, I was a director of clinical education at an a graduate program and we would have to get them all in a room and say, okay, everyone, the competition is over.
[00:33:56] You've all gotten into graduate school. You're all here. And even then there was this competitiveness that had just been ingrained in them. And I remember feeling it too. But like you said, We're not connecting that that behavior is going to taint and also be. Influencing your clinical practice for some reason, we've, we started compartmentalizing that so early that, you know, and I'm, I'm reflecting on myself as you're saying this, I'm thinking, wow, you know, that competitiveness doesn't just go away.
[00:34:32] Right? You don't take off your grad student hat and then put on your, you're the same person. 
[00:34:36] Valerie Borum: Yeah. Right. And when you think about it, also, in terms of competition, if you think of it in terms of groups, in terms of how we're looking at power, this hierarchy has what who's situated on top? Yeah, somebody's got to be.
[00:34:52] Yeah. And so whites want to concede. They want to continue to see themselves on top. Remember, we're talking about white culture here, where it's extremely competitive. So there's difficulty in saying, okay, well. This person or this group is supposed to be at the bottom, but yet they're out doing me and something else.
[00:35:12] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah,
[00:35:12] Valerie Borum: right. 
[00:35:12] And so it becomes that competitive in terms of even when we look at race and culture, there's competition there as well. And I think what's also interesting is that let's see. Oh, what we emphasize the scientific method. That's the only way that, you know, they assume it's objective, but it's also subjective.
[00:35:30] Treasyri Williams Wood: That's huge too in our profession, right? We are taught, right? And when you do an assessment, scientific, what do you think is wrong? Well, what are your investment? What's the variable? How are you measuring? And that is, I mean, that is the measuring stick. So this. 
[00:35:43] Valerie Borum: Oh, yeah. Yeah, and then this is also, we believe in cause and effect the dualisms, either or mind, body, good, bad, right?
[00:35:52] Wrong. You know, it's, you know, all of this, but they also believe in that their system. They say that. They believe that not only the Christian system, but their ways of being in their white system as superior to other cultural systems. Our ideology. Is to bring other groups up to our standards. That's important to know because see, this is what we're dealing with.
[00:36:20] Yeah, right. The way we're framing cultural humility and cultural competency. It's somehow another. These other groups are problematic because they have not yet. You know, risen to our standard yet. So now we have to do this 
[00:36:36] Treasyri Williams Wood: trouble, right? There have right. Exactly. And we talk about that a lot, right? That, you know.
[00:36:42] Yeah, I use the example, you know, why isn't diversity and equity and inclusion treated like infection control in a hospital in a hospital? It's like five opportunities to wash your hands, wash your hands here. You know, it's just a standard to always wash your hands. It's incorporated. It's measured. But then when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion, it's this extra thing like, Oh yeah.
[00:37:09] And if you're really good at DEI, right. Could you imagine if you went to a hospital or you, you were in an environment where you were receiving medical care and they were like, and they happen to also do hand hygiene here. You will go ill. What do you mean? They happen to also do it, but we accept that for diversity and inclusion.
[00:37:27] Like, Oh, they also happen to do, you know, do some good DEI stuff here too, where it's not. Standard because it's really like, well, you know, and those other people tend to have problems. So if you could also have a, have a a translator at your eval, then you're really good versus the bare minimum, the bare, right.
[00:37:48] Valerie Borum: Right. And see the contagion is racism. Why aren't we treating it like that? 
[00:37:56] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. Oh, I want to call your attention to Maria says, having the language to communicate what we felt and known for a lifetime, but was always considered a problematic is crucial. I agree with you. I wonder how ASL may be changing with these conversations, including the unique experiences of the deaf community in the conversation and allowing their voices to be heard.
[00:38:22] for having me. Requires some cultural humility from the hearing community and understanding or hearing their stories. 
[00:38:29] Valerie Borum: Well, see, that's so interesting because I lived and I was immersed in the deaf community for three years and somehow or another, I intuitively knew that it took at least three years anthropologically to really immerse in a community.
[00:38:44] And, you know, it's again, it was the deaf community, the hearing community, and I was just like, there is no hearing community. I'm not, you know, part of a community because we're not deaf. I mean, yeah, that's interesting. We come from different communities, whether we're hearing or deaf and the assumption that, you know, all deaf people are of the same because they are deaf.
[00:39:09] Once again, it's what is considered deaf and what the knowledge base and so forth is white death. 
[00:39:16] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:39:17] Valerie Borum: it's white culture, but with deafness as that component.
[00:39:23] Treasyri Williams Wood: I never even thought about that. I never thought about that. 
[00:39:26] Valerie Borum: Exactly. It's all white. And this is what it's like African American deaf children or deaf students at Gallaudet University.
[00:39:35] I mean, it's getting a little better, but, you know, 75 percent of African American deaf students would withdraw within the 1st semester because of blatant racism. Blatant anti Black racism. So the assumption that we're all alike, we're all the same because we're Deaf, is once again, it's erasing people's histories.
[00:39:56] You know, you get folks, you know, Deaf people from all over the world. They don't stop being African American or Latino or Asian. And within those groups, you get a lot of diversity. We can't erase that and focus on deafness. And part of the problem with how we understand cultural competency and cultural how we understand cultural period is that we keep comparing what I call synchronic factors.
[00:40:24] For example, like Age gender deafness disability class and so forth. We keep associating that with race and ethnicity and culture and so that deafness becomes the culture. It's what is now invisible whiteness. Yeah, even American sign language. There's an international sign language, which the United States refuses to acknowledge.
[00:40:54] So everyone who comes to the United States or go to Gallaudet, they have to learn ASL American Sign Language, which is based actually on the French. Gallaudet. Yeah. And, and so that forms a base. It's very European. It's very white. There's actually a black sign language. It's actually a language. 
[00:41:17] Treasyri Williams Wood: Wow. I didn't know that.
[00:41:18] Wow. 
[00:41:18] Valerie Borum: And so this is what gets, this is why it's, it's so, I find so dangerous when we leave out components of what it means to be human, history, heritage, you know, and, and focus on, on the Because, like, for example, so many times I, you know, I say to white women, you come from a culture. Being a woman is not the same as being African American ethnically, because you have an ethnicity, you have a culture.
[00:41:48] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, it's not the same. Yeah. And I think, why do you think we oversimplify these things? 
[00:41:54] Valerie Borum: And airy logic, either or deaf, like, like, there's a hearing culture, really, really, you get, I forget Americans who rely on the oral tradition. 
[00:42:09] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. 
[00:42:10] Valerie Borum: And then you have Europeans who rely much more on somehow another what is written, right?
[00:42:17] Right, if it's not, it's starting writing. It doesn't exist. 
[00:42:20] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, that's true. That's that's true. 
[00:42:24] Valerie Borum: See, we, it's because we're all taught to use this framework of binary logic. 
[00:42:31] Treasyri Williams Wood: So, how do we push back and this is a big, big question, right? How do I introduce 
[00:42:36] Valerie Borum: different world views and centering these different world views?
[00:42:40] Not as others. But guess what? As the majority population, nearly what? Like less than 20 percent of the world's population consists of people of European descent. 
[00:42:54] Treasyri Williams Wood: 20%. Yeah, 
[00:42:55] Valerie Borum: less than 20. 
[00:42:58] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, and it takes courage to do that, right? It takes, especially in this climate. I found that, and I'm not sure if you relate to this, but it takes courage to be a practitioner that is willing to center other worldviews in such a time as this, where everything is so binary, where everything is so either you love people or you hate people.
[00:43:20] If you either, if you, if you explore this, then you're, you're, you're trying to, you know, Destroy children. If you explore that you hate Christmas. If you explore that, then you hate, you know, the Easter bunny, right? It's it takes a lot of courage to be able to do that as a practitioner while also Trying to navigate clinical competence, right?
[00:43:44] Cause we, we've talked about cultural competence, but then there's that clinical, what makes you clinically competent and as a teacher and as a student, I'm sure, and I'm sure you've gone through this too, being black, being of other and going through a, a white institution, clinical competence to me was always cold for BS.
[00:44:07] Closely proximal to whiteness as you can, as you do this profession, or you are not going to make it. 
[00:44:14] Valerie Borum: Right. That's the message and it's loud and clear and it's institutionalized and that's the expected outcome. But humility allows us to to sort of. Decenter the white world view. Oh, I'm sorry that that was from Jordan. Oh, that was from what? I just saw the last chat, someone put in the chat. Oh, okay. Yes, I mean, for example, I have in working with African American hearing families and their deaf children, for example, within a school setting, and it was the model school for, deaf children, and, you know. As a social worker, and I was a counselor as well I would work with families having what we would call a psycho educational kind of, you know, groups and I would work with African American hearing families as well as Latino hearing families. And I would, I would basically give them the 411, like, okay, if your child comes in with a bruise.
[00:45:21] Because it's in a school setting that that children are most likely to be reported for child abuse in terms of the families. If your child comes in with a bruise as a social worker as a counselor, we are mandated to report it. Right. Okay. So this is what we're going to have to do. And like, especially when I'm working with African American families, because I know, you know, it's like, you spare the rod, you spoil a child.
[00:45:49] Yeah, I get it. I understand it biblically, but here's what we need to do. You know, you don't want to hit your child or discipline your child corporately discipline your child. 1st of all, when you're angry. 
[00:46:03] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:46:03] Valerie Borum: we need to count. Take a break. And if you can't do it, have someone else in the family, if you have an older adult in the family who can do it, but calm down first.
[00:46:15] Do not hit your child with an object. Yeah, I know you can take off that shoe.
[00:46:24] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, I know. 
[00:46:26] Valerie Borum: You know, if you need to do use corporate punishment, you know, that's what the butt is for. Make sure that the clothes that there's clothing, so that your child is not walking in with a bruise. 
[00:46:41] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, because that scene is something much, much different. That's a. A siren, right? Yeah. 
[00:46:48] Valerie Borum: Yeah, but you see how I'm trying to work.
[00:46:50] I'm starting with where the families are is not and I'm not saying a 
[00:46:54] Treasyri Williams Wood: bad parent. If you're a bad parent, 
[00:46:57] Valerie Borum: you say, if we should remove your children and put them in child welfare. You know, I'm not saying getting them to stop and think, like, stop and think this when you're in this environment. Okay, when your child is in this environment, this is what's going to happen.
[00:47:11] This is what's real. So how do we navigate your desire to continue with corporal punishment? And this is not about, oh, there's some families that don't believe in corporate punishment. Well, that's fine. You know, if you get the privilege, you know, that's fine. You know, but, you know, these parents are trying to, to, to socialize their children, you know, in a way that they have to take on, you know, hostile environments.
[00:47:37] Treasyri Williams Wood: Mm -hmm. 
[00:47:39] Valerie Borum: And so I'm working with families being culturally sensitive and culturally, you know, in terms of humility. So I'm going to start with where you are. I'm not going to stop 
[00:47:51] Treasyri Williams Wood: because you have to decenter yourself or your view. Yes, you're not sitting here saying. I would ever hit my, right. You might, you might never ever, ever spank your child, or you might not ever have anything to do with that.
[00:48:04] You might think, oh my goodness, but you're not centering yourself in your worldview in that moment. Right. And so most people would clutch their pearls. I would never hit a child. Why would you ever hit a child? I would never do that to my child, but you have no idea what it means to be the descendants of slaves to be, you know, and I I talk about this as a, as a black woman, right.
[00:48:26] You know, Black people didn't get free from slavery and just go to therapy and, you know, get through it. It is and in many cultures, it's that idea that, well, we were beaten in order. I have to beat you before the police beat you before the street speech. And that's a cultural thing that you're not going to unpack.
[00:48:45] During one school year when you just happen to be that one teacher in that one classroom or that one practitioner working with that family. And so you have to decenter yourself, which takes a lot. Right? It may not be in an alignment with how you may be raising your children or your culture's parenting skills.
[00:49:03] But again, to your point, if you're centering a world view that is standard, that's going to be very hard. . 
[00:49:11] Valerie Borum: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's like, you know, as a social worker, I'm sure people that doesn't sound like a social worker, but no, that's cultural humility. Right. Start with where the client is working with them to navigate.
[00:49:28] Gate in such a way that it is very supportive of their aspiration, their beliefs, their values, but yet saying we are within this system is oppressive. So how do we counteract that? 
[00:49:44] Treasyri Williams Wood: It's also a power issue, right? Of empowering parents to stop and, and asking them to reflect, but not feeling like you're stripping them of their power to where they Even more small and fragile so that they are abusing their power.
[00:50:00] Right. Then you're turning around and creating the very thing that you were trying to prevent. 
[00:50:06] Valerie Borum: Right. Because I'm, I'm acknowledging and recognizing and respecting that they are the parents. 
[00:50:12] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. 
[00:50:12] Valerie Borum: And that they are the ones who are facilitating this family structure and, and, and preparing their children for a world that, I mean, we're talking about also children who are deaf and black.
[00:50:26] Where is, you know, if you're out there and you're doing something, well, folks are not going to know that you're deaf and until you use your sign language, they're seeing the black child. 
[00:50:36] Treasyri Williams Wood: So, for them, the stakes are a lot higher. Yes. And a lot of people, you know, we have. When I was a clinic director, we had similar issues like that with children in the clinic.
[00:50:46] I mean, we used to have a parent that would come and if that child, if their children, their children were highly autistic. And if they did anything wrong there, in my opinion, and in most of the people's opinion, right. That the parent would really react very, Strongly snatch them up, you know, no, you know, and you, you're in your mind, you're thinking, whoa, like, this is an issue that have to react.
[00:51:13] But the parent made a comment like that. I have to make sure because the world is not going to see this person and think, oh, you have to meet them in a place where you can, they think you care. Right, because if people don't think you care, they won't care what you think. And I think it speaks to that. I think sometimes as practitioners, we're working with diverse populations.
[00:51:37] We slip into power struggles with parents. We slip into power struggles with family members. We slip into power struggles with the people that we are serving. Because we know best. Because we know best. Right. And instead of stopping and thinking, okay, how can I decenter my worldview and center their worldview?
[00:52:02] I'm not dying, I'm not giving up my values, but I'm decentering myself because if I truly wanna serve these people, I cannot serve them if I am robbing them of their sense of power in their own family. 
[00:52:17] Valerie Borum: Right. Exactly. Exactly, because that's very dehumanizing. 
[00:52:23] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. 
[00:52:24] Valerie Borum: And another strategy that we could use, I always say is real simple.
[00:52:29] Let's ask clients. How they could be better served aspirations because I always when I work with whether it's families, individuals work with communities, I always want to start off with where they are. I want to start with where they are and I want to know what their goals and what their aspirations are.
[00:52:51] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, 
[00:52:51] Valerie Borum: what are their hopes? 
[00:52:53] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah. Oh, I love that. What are the challenges? That motivational energy interviewing, what does better look like for you? And I think we've gotten a lot better in our profession, patient reported outcome measures and more subjective qualitative, but we need more of that, right?
[00:53:10] What does better feel like for you? What does it look like for you? And how will you know you're better? I love that. And we have 2 minutes because I know we can talk. This is so many nuggets so many mind blows. I feel like I just need to go on my thinking chair and think after talking to you. But do you have anything that you recommend?
[00:53:31] I always ask people. What are you reading? What do you have? Any authors that you're like? Oh, if you. You know, I really recommend this person any, any texts or literature that you recommend that we delve into those of us who are interested in exploring.
[00:53:48] Valerie Borum: Yes, what I can do is, let's see,
[00:54:06] what I can do is I'd like to share with you an article that I published. It's, it's, it's, It's, you know, it's, it's seminal. So see, cause I think a lot of times we want to read like what's, what's happening now. And that's important. But there's similar work that laid the groundwork that I think is also just as important, but I do want to share with you.
[00:54:27] Like, I, I, I did 1 publication. It's a general article and I delve into culture. What does culture means? What does it look like? And I think it's an Afro centric approach and working with African American families. And I also even have a section. On looking at language. Okay. And how language is also tied to worldview.
[00:54:49] And because it's tied to worldview, it's tied to the linguistic structure and the grammar and that it's also a philosophy that influences how we think. So when you hear,
[00:54:59] Treasyri Williams Wood: so I'll do Dr. Morgan because we have one minute. Okay. I'll take that. And I love this. I'm gonna put that on my Instagram. Okay. That we are going to also put it.
[00:55:10] Let's see. So I'm going to drop my Instagram in there. Follow me on Instagram. I will put the link to Dr. Borum's article in there. And I see Tammy, you have your hand up. Please throw your question in the chat for me. Thank you so much. I am going to. I'll put the article on Instagram and we'll also put it in the reference page on the podcast website so that we can get it.
[00:55:32] Because I know we do have a hard stop right at eight. I want to thank you so much, Dr. Valliborne for just blowing our minds. I think I have a whole list of words that I have to go to my dictionary and they're going to be. Oh, I'm so sorry. No, I love that. I love that. I, I words that I'm just going to start using in my daily vocabulary.
[00:55:52] We just appreciate your research, your education and the expertise that you've provided about to answer the question of that. Am I looking at questions? Am I missing? I don't have any new questions. 
[00:56:06] Valerie Borum: Oh, okay. 
[00:56:07] Treasyri Williams Wood: The question I only have yep, I only have last month for Maria and then my emails also provided. So if someone has questions, they can email us a follow up.
[00:56:19] But thank you so much for. This expertise about diversity and equity and cultural worldview, I think it's been so valuable and thank you all for coming. And attending episode 3. Okay. And so 
[00:56:37] Valerie Borum: real quickly, I know you're on time. Yeah. When you spoke about inclusion, there was this I don't know someone put posted it on LinkedIn and they said inclusion isn't just inviting someone to sit at your table is believing they belong there.
[00:56:51] I was there. I found that very problematic because I said, what about believing that the table belongs to us all. Okay. 
[00:56:57] Treasyri Williams Wood: Right, right. Instead of the meritocracy, right? Oh, God, I might need to do we might need to come back and talk about meritocracy because that might be a double hour. We need 2 hours. 
[00:57:08] Valerie Borum: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:57:09] And thank you for this. You know, opportunity to to really, like. To interrogate. 
[00:57:15] Treasyri Williams Wood: Oh, I love this. This was good. This was so good because we are not and we are not. I know she's going to put on the music in a minute. I'm surprised. She hasn't put the Sam music on me yet, but we're not challenged to have these kinds of conversations in our profession.
[00:57:30] But then we're criticized for not having the tools. And so it's really, really it's really, you know, and I'm sure most healthcare professions are like that, right? 
[00:57:38] Valerie Borum: Well, yeah. I mean, I think of my time at Galludet University where they were gonna have, I think it was an audiologist someone come and speak and the, the students, you know, barricaded, , you know, because audiology is such a bad word for particularly, it's a bad word for white death.
[00:57:54] Treasyri Williams Wood: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's not like that with other cultures, other deaf cultures, audiology, 
[00:58:01] Valerie Borum: like African Americans, you know, the speech, they want the voice. 
[00:58:05] Treasyri Williams Wood: Really? I didn't know that. And that's, yeah. And I remember in school studying audiology and that was a big thing that, you know, that they do not like SLPs.
[00:58:17] They, they, but then you never stopped to ask who was, they, it was like deaf people, capital D deaf. But did that necessarily mean all? Cultures of deaf people. 
[00:58:27] Valerie Borum: See, capital big D deaf is usually deaf children from deaf families and deafness is much more likely to run in white families. Then, because if you talk about once again, health disparities, deafness, like, among many different groups is the result of some other.
[00:58:44] Issues like poverty, uh uh. Right, right, right. and all of these other issues. Right. Maria says a shift in thinking here. I know, me too. Maria . Me too. Right? It's not all about us who knew? Right? . It's not all about us. We have to be aware of that. It's not all about us and why it's not all about us. 
[00:59:08] Treasyri Williams Wood: Right. Thank you. Thank you. 
[00:59:10] Valerie Borum: Thank you so much for having me. 
[00:59:12] Treasyri Williams Wood: You're welcome. Thank you all.
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