SLPL S13E6
[00:00:00] Announcer: Welcome to SLP Learning Series, a podcast series presented by SpeechTherapyPD.com. The SLP Learning Series explores various topics of speech language pathology. Each season dives deeper into a topic with a different host and guests who are leaders in the field. Some topics include stuttering, AAC, sports concussion, Teletherapy ethics and more.
[00:00:42] Announcer: Each episode has an accompanying audio course on speech therapy pd.com and is available for 0.1 ASHA CEUs now come along with us as we look closer into the many topics of speech language pathology.
[00:00:57] Garrett: Hi everyone. My name is Garrett Scooter Oyama and I'm your host for this mini podcast series. Tunes for Talk Music as a Tool for Language Intervention. Today is the sixth and final installment and music. We might call this the headliner, , and it's called rhythms of speech unveiling the melodic bridge between music and language therapy.
[00:01:24] Garrett: And I mentioned before that I'm an SLP and I'm also a musician. So I'm just really, really grateful to be able to talk with you all about how music speech and language are intimately related and how music can be a practical tool for therapy in a bunch of different ways. And thank you for all the comments as well. I truly appreciate them. , and before we get started, just a few items to alert you to. 
[00:01:46] Garrett: This course is one hour long. and will be offered for 0.1 ASHA CEUs. A couple of financial disclosures, we each receive an honorarium from speechtherapypd.com. We work together on a variety of projects including NSF grants and speech therapy services and there are no other non-financial disclosures to be made.
[00:02:09] Garrett: I'm so excited to welcome the incredible Matthew Guggemos, award winning speech language pathologist and co-founder of iTherapy brings a unique blend of technology, innovation, and a passion for music to the field of language development. His work, particularly with Intervoice, an app focuses on enhancing communication for individuals on the autism spectrum and recognized by Mensa for his contributions.
[00:02:33] Garrett: Matthew expertly intertwines drumming, with speech therapy techniques, offering fresh insights into the symbiotic relationship between music and language. His approachable and innovative methods make him a captivating voice in the realm of harmonized learning. And, just for some connective tissue, Matthew is one of my mentors and just one of my favorite people in the world.
[00:02:52] Garrett: So I'm so happy to have him, just to be able to have this conversation with him and have it be the last one in the series. , So thanks for being here. 
[00:03:00] Matthew: Well, thanks for having me. That was a kind introduction too, so I really appreciate that. I have to say too, , full disclosure, Garrett's one of my favorite people, so I'm glad to talk with him.
[00:03:11] Garrett: Well, can you tell everyone a little bit about your, your background, um, especially with regards, to speech and music? Yeah, that'd be a cool place to start. 
[00:03:22] Matthew: Yeah, absolutely. I, well, my first, I guess the, the first thing I studied was music. I got into it at a pretty young age as a, uh, studying string instruments and, um, I started the viola, but then I kind of found I had an aptitude for drumming and switched to that.
[00:03:40] Matthew: And then from. From that point, I went to Michigan State University. I played in the jazz band one at Michigan State and then, played professionally at a young age and continued on to, um, I played on cruise ships, I played in musicals, I toured around Europe and then the United States and recorded a number of albums.
[00:04:03] Matthew: But throughout that, I always noticed just the, uh, how you can connect with people playing music, different types of people to me and how, how you can, uh, even when you don't speak the same language, the way you can connect and make friends with people, , socially, just by playing in the same band and people from different backgrounds, and then even sometimes people you didn't even like, I mean, you find you can play music together and then you kind of get along.
[00:04:28] Matthew: So. And that really, that fascinated me, and then I've always been someone who likes to know how things work and how music's put together. And that kind of led me into language. How does language work? You know, how do we, um, how do we put together sentences or find words or create conversations on the spot?
[00:04:46] Matthew: Without rehearsing them. And I thought that was, paralleled a lot of jazz that I studied jazz in college and, and the way jazz operates is very much like a language. So that kind of got me into linguistics and speech pathology. Uh, and, um, I, I, from that point, we've just been kind of building on that interest, that kind of fascination or interest in those two fields.
[00:05:12] Garrett: I love that, that you're mentioning that, you know, it helps connect people. I've noticed that too. There's been people that I didn't particularly get along with and then I played music with them in college and, and, somehow you start to like them a little bit more and I feel like language and music are both like this, this like auditory. Glue that helps us bond together socially. 
[00:05:34] Garrett: And, and we've talked about this before on, uh, both you and I on, on the podcast as well, that, um, you know, when you actually synchronize with somebody rhythmically, you become more pro social and so that sort of, and there's this, you know, release of neurochemicals and, and so that release helps us.
[00:05:52] Garrett: Bond with other people together. It helps us, you know, collaborate, and get work done. So I think that's just such a, such a cool thing. Music and language both connect us. Um, maybe, can you, can you tell us a little bit more about how being a musician, you mentioned a little bit about how it, um, informed, your interest in language, but maybe how it informs your speech therapy practice today.
[00:06:16] Matthew: Yeah. I think one, probably the thing that, uh, got me so interested in, , teaching functional communication, cause I've really found that's something that I'm, uh, very interested in. Uh, how do you teach people or, uh, little kids at, at, when I first started, I didn't focus on early intervention, and I got more and more interested in early intervention because I thought it was.
[00:06:40] Matthew: It really reminded me of how you start on an instrument. I mean, because when you start on an instrument, most people can't just grab an instrument and then communicate their thoughts on it. And that's, I think that's very similar to language. I mean, if you don't show some, if people don't practice a language, I mean, they, they, they don't expand, their, their skills.
[00:07:00] Matthew: And then, that whole idea of improvisation, how do you improvise? And I think that's something that kind of gets overlooked. In, um, maybe speech therapy by, I don't know, uh, I don't run across many people unless it's you and I talking about this very often. And that like, well, what is improvisation? How does it work?
[00:07:18] Matthew: How does it, how does it, um, intertwine, um, uh, with, um, with language? And then how is it similar to music? And for me, um, one of the things that kind of, uh, got me interested in this is like studying jazz because jazz may on the out from like an outward perspective look like oh people are just making things up i mean they're just they're making things up as they go but actually as you know there's a structure there's often a song structure how many times you do something how many chords you play and and it you know the time or you know You know, sequences.
[00:07:50] Matthew: That's really similar to how language is too. I mean, you, you have to know, well, what's the structure? I mean, did someone say something? I mean, do I wait while they're saying something? Do I say something at the same time? I mean, all these rules that we have to learn. And then how do we actually, how do we create a thought?
[00:08:07] Matthew: And then share it and then expand on it. I mean, and which words, which words work? I mean, because you think about, I could say one word, I can say cat, but then, well, what else can I say after that? I mean, and we have to think about the order of words, just like the order of notes, , or the, uh, in my case, I'm drumming.
[00:08:24] Matthew: They're, they're, you do a similar thing. , what sound comes next or what sounds can come together? And it kind of reminds me of phonotactics with, uh, with, , speech and language. I mean, we can't just, every time we have a new, uh, idea, make up a new word or a new sound combination, because no one would understand each other.
[00:08:42] Matthew: So you have to learn all these rules and then master these, these sets of combinations. And then learn, okay, well, which ones can we use in the moment so that our thoughts can be understood or we want to get something we've asked for something. How are we understood if we want to ask for something or how are we understood if we don't want something.
[00:09:00] Matthew: And it, uh, it just really fascinated me and I constantly see parallels between functional communication and conversations and then improvisational music. So. At least in my mind, I see a connection. 
[00:09:13] Garrett: Ah, I think the analogy is deep. That's so cool. I mean, even just this now where it's amazing that we're able to not have any really set plan and then just go into something and have a conversation that's, that's hopefully productive for people.
[00:09:27] Garrett: And, and that goes somewhere and we're not like running into each other with different words. And, you know, um, all of that is just like jazz. We're following these invisible sets of rules, um, using, you know, our expertise in this matter. And one thing I found out recently, this is so cool. I, I'd never known this before.
[00:09:46] Garrett: I heard, , somewhere that, you know, we, we know about, you know, speech therapists, we all know about Broca's area, we know about Wernicke's area, but there's this other, um, part of the brain that they've found out that, , it's called the sub central area. And when they started doing, experiments that involved people actually in conversation with each other, They realized that it's not just our language, typical language centers that are lighting up, it's this other area that's used for tracking, predicting, and responding to language as it, as it's used moment by moment in conversation.
[00:10:18] Garrett: And I feel like that piece is like often. Uh, left out of the conversation, but that, that whole, that whole glue of a conversation, the sort of invisible pieces of it, you know, the fact that we're thinking about what each other are thinking and trying to respond to what we hear are all, I mean, to me, it's very, they're all really musical qualities of language.
[00:10:43] Matthew: Yeah. That's fascinating. I haven't read that yet, but I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, if you think about, How much information, , that we have to take in, in a conversation, especially as we're saying longer utterances. And, and our ability to track and make predictions again, that's something that's, , similar to how you play music and it doesn't matter the style of music or what part in the world they're doing it.
[00:11:06] Matthew: I mean, you can go to Africa and you watch, , Just master drummers or musicians play who are improvising and they have to predict what's going to happen next and what's happening in the moment. And then, , then they go and have a conversation with each other. They're doing the same thing, except with words instead of instruments.
[00:11:23] Matthew: And it's not surprising that there's a particular part of the brain that's responsible for those sets of things that you would use in a conversation or with, you know, with playing musical instruments. It makes you wonder, well, which thing came first? 
[00:11:36] Garrett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, I imagine that it's, it's really, really big in, in like Miles Davis or something like that.
[00:11:43] Garrett: Like he must have a huge area of the brain for improvising. I don't know, maybe jazz musicians in general, but it sort of brings up this other point too, you're, you're talking about how, um, you thought a lot about the structure of, of both and, and how there's this deep analogy and, you know, that's kind of this point of, Meta learning.
[00:12:05] Garrett: And that's something that, you know, I learned from you and also, , just being a musician in general, when you have to break something down into its parts and learn it and become a master at it, you start to have that. You you're able to do that in, in other fields as well. So I feel like, I don't know if you had that experience too, but having the, you know, learning something on an instrument, um, helps a lot with, Understanding that language and learning how to speak is so complicated and there's all these steps.
[00:12:37] Garrett: And so when you teach someone language, you really have to break it down. You can't take all of those parts for granted. 
[00:12:44] Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, that concept of meta learning is very cool. That's something I'm, very interested in. In fact, , that, that's what we, we've talked about, but I can, you know, share with the group here is I'm going to be doing a speech, uh, or talking in Washington, DC, um, as part of the, conference for the National Academy of Sciences.
[00:13:04] Matthew: And we're talking about how people. How neuroscience and AI are, , interconnected and how, um, you know, AI can influence neuroscience and vice versa. And meta learning is one of those, key pieces. And it's such a fascinating concept, the idea of learning how to learn things. And then, , and, and, I think that's, you know, maybe some people might think, well, what does this have to do with speech therapy?
[00:13:25] Matthew: Well, I think it's really important because if you know how people learn stuff just anything it could be sewing It could be I mean it could be uh cooking cooking as improvisation sewing does too. What if something tears? You got to figure out how to fix it. You know, uh, it could be music. It could be surfing or skiing all those sort of things are We we have to learn Individual units of information.
[00:13:50] Matthew: So if you think of, um, maybe we'll take surfing. If you got to turn left, I guess that's a unit of information. You got to turn left in a large way. Well, that's a one unit of information recontextualized. Then you got to learn how to turn right and then you got to learn how to turn left and right. And so, so if you think of that, instead, we break it down to speech therapy or speech pathology.
[00:14:10] Matthew: If you think of the units of information as morphemes. And then, you know, this morpheme can go here and then this one can go here. And then we can say these things in this context. Well, that's how language works too. So I think, um, there's a lot of value and learning how, how to do other things and how to do other skills and then how to build those skills in such a way that you can improvise in novel environments.
[00:14:34] Matthew: , and then if we understand that process, well, what does that process look like? To me, in my mind, this might, uh, bring back some, , hopefully good memories for people in grad school, maybe not, but, , the bloom Lahey model where you have content form and use. Because I think that there's that simple three circle idea where there's a, you have to get content in a, in a subject matter, and then you have to be able to know how that content is structured or how, and how it fits together and the combinations that syntax essentially.
[00:15:06] Matthew: And then you have use what has. How do you apply the content, the combinations, and then, uh, and then how do you put those together in novel settings, those are the conversations, you know, going, how do you say something at a gas station versus you're talking to, uh, um, a politician, for example. I mean, you're all, you're going to use the content and form in different ways, depending on the, you know, the setting, and that's very similar to other skills that involve improvisation.
[00:15:33] Matthew: You don't always play music the same way with. different musicians. I mean, if I jump into a, uh, let's say someone hires me to play a jazz gig and then I just start playing thrash metal. I mean, I might be having a great time, but it's the wrong setting. Just like, uh, speaking and, you know, not changing your pragmatic language style for, uh, for a given setting might not fit in.
[00:15:56] Matthew: So there you can see they kind of overlap in so many different ways. 
[00:16:00] Garrett: Also mistakes I've made in the past. I, I, you know, I grew up as a, as a shredder and I would get gigs and just totally overplay just like way too much. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And it's also that, that use piece. I'm just connecting this, thinking about music again, , the pragmatic language pieces where a lot of the musical qualities of language.
[00:16:23] Garrett: , lie. And, and I think they're, I think they're often, um, under value, undervalued and underappreciated because you think of something like, you know, think of infant directed speech, , it's like shown that experimentally, even cross culturally, that babies understand the meaning of these different phrases, just, and they're not understanding the, , you know, the, um, Semantic meaning of it, but there's just through the timing and the pitch elements that are changing of the speech stream, they understand whether a message is angry or mad or sad, or, , they have this, um, this deep understanding of what's going on just based on the, you know, the timing and the pitch and the prosody.
[00:17:06] Garrett: And so I feel like this. The musical quality contains meaning. , that's, that's really, really deep. And that's right. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. 
[00:17:17] Matthew: No, I mean, I was agreeing as I, I mean, you can, I think if you were to, uh, if you kind of look, look at prosody as kind of the musical element of, of conversational speech, I mean, it has a huge impact on meaning I'd say.
[00:17:30] Matthew: You know, semantics is where it really impacts the most. I mean, cause if you say the phrase, I have a car, if I say, I have a car, that's like, no, Garrett doesn't have a car. I have a car, I have a car. Not, you know, and so I'm clarifying, I have a car, not a surfboard or whatever. And, uh, and so I'll, and the words are the same.
[00:17:49] Matthew: But the, the stress is, , changes the meaning. So, um, that, um, the, you know, the super segmentals and, and change of prosody, those sort of things are a huge piece of, of communicating and also changing how, um, and I mean, how you communicate socially because you're, you change your prosody, uh, a little bit given the social setting as well.
[00:18:12] Garrett: Yeah. And this is, I think this is an important thing in for speech therapists to know as well, because, you know, we tend to write off like, Oh, it's just kids drumming on a table. That's, that's annoying. Stop doing that. But it turns out that being able to track prosody is related to, um, your ability to keep a beat and to pattern rhythm.
[00:18:32] Garrett: So if you can copy someone, you know, um, I heard this other thing about, , Zakir Hussain, Uh, a famous tabla player, the drum player, Indian drum player, , was taught how to speak from his dad by just teaching him rhythm patterns connected to words. So he learned a bunch of like word phrases and rhythm, and that's how he learned language.
[00:18:54] Garrett: And it actually, you know, it tracks in a way because in, you know, they've shown that kids that are able to, they have these strong beat keeping and rhythm patterning skills. It's predictive of later. , both language and reading, uh, development. And so, it turns out that we use these really basic rhythmic skills.
[00:19:17] Garrett: , these, you know, really actually important skills to, to track prosody and we use prosody as a clue to meaning, you know, very, very, it's a very, very important one. So, you know, they found that people, for example, who are better at doing these things, they can hear speech better in noise. And, um, , sometimes if you are in a noisy environment, you, you might miss a word, you might miss out on the semantic meaning, but if you're tracking the prosody, it's a clue to.
[00:19:43] Garrett: What that whole, what that person is trying to say, um, you know, maybe what, what usually comes in that type of Uh, prosodic stream, what that might be. So I think that's important to remember too, is that, uh, working on these things, you know, maybe doing a drumming exercise with your kids, not only are they going to get more pro social, you're going to build rapport with them, but they're going to be practicing these, uh, you know, Sort of invisible elements of speech, musical qualities of speech.
[00:20:12] Matthew: Yeah. I think that's so fascinating. And, , and I also, people don't have to be master drummers. I mean, the example of Zakir Hussain, he's to me, the greatest living drummer on the planet right now. I'd say I'd put him at number one. So, I mean, people don't have to play like Zakir Hussain. Um, I certainly can't.
[00:20:31] Matthew: , so. What can you do though? I mean, what can you actually do to work on this with kids? I mean, just simply clapping in time. If you're just clapping like this, and then you have, uh, , you have a child clap with you. It doesn't have to be complicated, but that's a form of rhythm. And then it's a form of syncing together.
[00:20:49] Matthew: And that's also a way to establish joint attention too. So, uh, if you, you can work on core, you know, communication skills that help develop functional communication because if we're clapping together and now we're thinking about the same thing and it's fun it's reinforcing and it's a form of reinforcement learning which works on pretty much everyone.
[00:21:10] Matthew: Most people, uh, most people like to do things that, um, are interesting and motivating and, uh, and then you'll continue to do more of it. And on top of that, um, you know, I like this little reinforcement learning tangent with this because, uh, that, um, it also saves time because if, if you, if you do something that's reinforcing and then you can get someone to do more of the thing that you want them to do.
[00:21:33] Matthew: It actually takes less time and it's more fun because I mean a great example It's trying to tell someone where to go by telling them where not to go, you know If you're like, I need you to get to the gas station Okay, don't turn left. Now you're like, okay, do I go backwards? I go forwards, I go right, and then you got to deduce which way to go, and then the next set of, you know, directions or whatnot to do, 50 years later, you're at the gas station.
[00:21:58] Matthew: It's close, you know, so, and you're frustrated. It's very frustrating to learn that way. Doing reinforcing things, like clapping, and just for a couple minutes, or maybe one minute, it's reinforcing, establishes some joint attention, and then you're And, uh, and, and it can, and it can save time learning something like joint attention because it is reinforcing.
[00:22:18] Matthew: And, um, and, and it might be something, uh, kids will want to do again. 
[00:22:23] Garrett: Yeah. Yeah. And also the, the, uh, kind of the piece about music too, is that it's known to be, um, it's known to access these physiological arousal systems. So, um, we, you know, get excited when we hear music and we, uh, feel certain emotions very strongly when we hear music.
[00:22:45] Garrett: And even when we're clapping and we're, you know, think about like a stadium of people clapping together for a baseball game or something like that. Um, that's really exciting. And, uh, and when we're excited, when we're in a emotionally aroused state, we remember things better. Um, our attention is drawn to that.
[00:23:05] Garrett: And these things help. Encode the learning way more effectively. So like you're saying, yeah, totally time saver. And we're sort of seeing that with beatboxing too, when we can get kids to enjoy doing something, they just want to do it all the time. You know, you don't have to force them to go home and look at flashcards for, you know, like an hour.
[00:23:25] Garrett: It's, it's like, they're just, they're actually practicing it on their own. So if we can make some of these things that we. Want to help kids do we can make that, uh, you know, preferred and Um, enjoyable and yeah, totally. I think music's a great way to do that. 
[00:23:47] Matthew: Yeah. I, , one of the things that's kind of interesting too, is, um, uh, my wife is a, uh, as you know, uh, preschool or sorry, TK a teacher for, um, , an autism classroom, and, one way that she helps the kids transition, which I mean, most.
[00:24:04] Matthew: Kids and probably I'd even say adults of any type of background, neurodiverse, neurodivergent, neurotypical transitions are annoying or they can take, you know, they're, they're just, you're doing something, I gotta stop and then get on the next thing. So what she's been doing to help make the transitions more smooth as, uh, as sing, sing the words in it.
[00:24:25] Matthew: So she has a little, you know, maybe three pitches and she just sings, , What she wants the kids to do. So she just has a simple phrase and then puts it over a few pitches and then the kids they notice because there's maybe there's background noise. Now there's now they hear music and then you've back to good old communication sciences.
[00:24:45] Matthew: You've established a good signal to noise ratio because music's organized sound and an organized sound is usually a signal in contrast to just a bunch of noise. So now they pay attention. There's music and then they hear the words and it's fun. It's kind of like not as big of a deal to clean up the Legos.
[00:25:03] Matthew: I mean, or, or, or stop playing with Play Doh because they're singing a song and they're doing it too. And. She found that it's been helping quite a bit with transitions is and again, I mean maybe you're Anyone who's watching this if you're a speech pathologist, maybe you're an expert singer even better if you're not it doesn't matter.
[00:25:22] Matthew: It still um will draw the children's attention to the fact that There's some kind of music happening and they kind of will pay attention to it. And it also is just, I mean, music, most music's naturally enjoyable. I'm sure people can say, well, I don't enjoy what X music or something, but if you imagine just some simple little nursery rhyme type of thing, and then you're, , putting the, uh, what to do during a transition, you know, put away something or the cleanup song, clean up, clean up.
[00:25:51] Matthew: I mean, That's another example. I mean, it's like, who wants to clean up? No one wants to clean up. But when you hear that, you're kind of like, okay, fine, I'll clean up because it's, you know, it's a cleanup song. She found that it's, it's working. And, um, and it's, uh, and it's fun. I mean, wouldn't you rather do that than Kind of get annoyed, you're not listening, and then you're gonna repeat yourself.
[00:26:12] Matthew: Instead, the nice thing also about music is repeating the same thing over and over doesn't sound like you're getting annoyed. Because that's just part of music is repetition. So you're repeating the same thing. If you say to someone, clean up, clean up, everybody clean up, clean up, clean up. That just sounds a little bit harsh.
[00:26:29] Matthew: But when you put it to some pitches, Now, I mean, they can hear what to do over and over it's reinforcing and then it helps the transition. So that's just a practical application of something simple using music and, you know, mixed with some communication sciences. 
[00:26:44] Garrett: Yeah. I think that's useful in your, in your own life too.
[00:26:47] Garrett: I do. I definitely do that if I'm like putting away the laundry or I'm like, you know, sometimes when I'm typing reports, I got, I put on some music to, to get me started. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's this, um, literature on how, when we're. Even when we're not moving, when we're silent, we're, um, and we listen to music, it activates, you know, the motor circuitry in our brains.
[00:27:09] Garrett: So it's like, it looks as if in our brain that we're moving. And it's also what it does is that, um, it engages these circuits, these sort of, um, pre motor circuits that help prep your body for movement. So when you listen to music, you're actually more, um, Like you're saying with transitions, it, it'll actually.
[00:27:30] Garrett: Preps you for a transition. So your body is getting ready to move physiologically, um, neuro neurophysiologically. So, you know, that's why, um, often when people go to the gym, they'll, they'll listen to music or they'll try and listen to music beforehand to psych themselves up or get pumped or professional athletes to do that, listen to music.
[00:27:51] Garrett: And, and there's something that's getting activated in the brain that, that preps you for, for doing that. So, yeah, I totally think that this is like the perfect. Transition tool using, using music. Um, yeah, that's so many cool uses. 
[00:28:08] Matthew: I agree with that. And I think the thing that's important for people to consider too, is you don't have to be an expert musician and it's not a performance.
[00:28:16] Matthew: And, uh, it doesn't necessarily have to be shown on, uh, social media or anything when you're just singing a cleanup song. Um, it, I mean, it, music isn't always for performance or entertainment. I mean, it, like when you talk, when we talk about, um, how it primes the brain for, for physical movement or helps establish a better signal to noise ratio for a command that, you know, to make sure the class is on to the next thing on their schedule.
[00:28:43] Matthew: That has really very little to do with performance or excellence or execution. It's just a tool. And I think that's an important takeaway is that, um, if you're using music, you can use it as a tool, not necessarily like it's some sort of a woo woo kind of whatever we're using music or something. It actually has, um, very good uses and it doesn't have to be again, like you're performing for a stadium of, uh, It's just a tool and you can feel it and try it out.
[00:29:13] Matthew: I mean, rather than, I mean, I'm sure it's people might feel a little self conscious singing in front of other adults, but you know, it, it, it has a lot of uses and it's an excellent tool and doesn't really take much energy. Uh, and also you don't have to look around for your mouth to sing. It's right there.
[00:29:29] Matthew: There you go. Yeah. And I mean, 
[00:29:32] Garrett: you know, like you're saying that so many people think of music as just being for entertainment. It's Or, um, you know, it's just a performance or entertainment and for thousands of years, you know, up until very recently, it was not that at all. It was, you know, uh, it was a technology for people to use to get stuff done or, you know, um, maybe feel emotions or connect or, um, you know, for, for whatever reasons they were using it, but it wasn't this, uh, just simply entertainment performance thing.
[00:30:10] Garrett: You know, in ancient times, I think you sent me this video. Um, I forget where it was, but they're, they're singing this, this song to, to, , get some, some work done essentially. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. , And yeah, and so I feel like, you know, we have it in us, uh, In our, in our DNA to, to want to use music in some way.
[00:30:38] Garrett: So I think it's very deep. And I 
[00:30:40] Matthew: think it, I mean, it also can help with word retrieval too. I mean, I, I can't remember the exact study right now, or, but, um, it can help with the, you know, it might, might be a tool to help with Anomia as well. I mean, if you can't remember a word or this is kind of a fun experiment you can do on yourself.
[00:30:57] Matthew: You can think, try to say, try to say. All the words to a song you like, um, without singing it and see if you can remember this, the words and as opposed to how many, how quickly or how easily you can remember the words to the song if you sing it. And, and I mean, they're the same words and I find it's, it's a lot easier.
[00:31:18] Matthew: Even if you're just thinking of the, of the song in your head, as opposed to just thinking of the words, and I, and you can see how it does help with the word retrieval, uh, as well for maybe if you're working with adult patients. 
[00:31:32] Garrett: Yeah, I just was trying to do that in my head for a second, like definitely, definitely hard.
[00:31:38] Garrett: It's sort of funny, you know. You probably had this happen to you when you, uh, hear a, hear an old song that you heard when you were a kid and you're like, why I haven't heard this song in 20 years. And I know all the words to it. Like you're, you're following it and somehow it's still in there. Um, it's crazy that that music can do that.
[00:31:58] Garrett: I just think that, yeah, like that, you know, there's all the, uh, I think it helps coordinate movement because there's so much going on, uh, in the world today. The cerebellum and the basal ganglia. And when you're doing music, you have to, you're kind of forced into using, using timing more precisely. And so it helps smooth the movement, which is why, you know, um, you know, in fluency, for example, singing words can, can be helpful and right.
[00:32:29] Garrett: Making it more fluent. 
[00:32:31] Matthew: Yeah. And I mean, I, uh, what is it? Melodic intonation therapy. I mean, that's a, an aphasia treatment, uh, as well. Yeah. And I can, I can, what is it? Contrastive stress therapy. It's that form of like, kind of like music where you're emphasizing, uh, certain syllables over others. I mean, that was like that example of, I have a car versus, uh, you know, I have a car, you know, so, uh, I, those, those, those, Those are all aspects of it as well.
[00:32:56] Matthew: And so I, , I, I really do feel that, um, uh, this just, even if people watching this are not musicians, uh, just learning a little bit about the neurology of music and the neuroscience behind it, uh, it's, uh, it, you might find it fascinating and there, you might find some things that are applicable to, uh, to your practice.
[00:33:19] Matthew: Um, even again, even if you're not a musician. Are 
[00:33:24] Garrett: there any other, um, tools that, that you have used, , in, in therapy? Uh, any other stories that stand out to you? You kind of come back to, um, using rhythm or music more broadly. 
[00:33:41] Matthew: Let's see. Well, I mean, I think probably the, the, the stuff I, I would, um, I would say are, um, just the, the, the use of music for joint attention and then also being in a group too.
[00:33:55] Matthew: I mean, cause if you think of like, uh, early intervention, if you think of a preschool or a TK class, I mean, part of being in school at that age is just learning to be in a group. And then the emphasis of the group is, why is the group getting together? Because we're learning things. And we're learning from each other.
[00:34:14] Matthew: And then we're learning from a person showing us stuff, generally the teacher or some, you know, aides. And, but, I mean, it takes a while to be able to learn how to be in a group. I mean, you have to know how to maybe stay in a certain area and not get in your friend's area and all that. And, um, Just using simple songs that kids are familiar with, uh, that I just using it to, to establish how to be in a group.
[00:34:42] Matthew: And then it doesn't even have to be like, well, no, we're going to sit here for a half an hour, you know, as a four year old, just if we're, if we're trying to establish, you know, personal space, you can work on proxemics. The, um, personal space between people, um, that you can use a simple song that interests the kids.
[00:35:01] Matthew: It's engaging. And, um, I think that's a great use of it, um, for early intervention or groups, uh, that you can help kids be in a group. Cause if there's a source of music there and then they're singing, well, then they're attending to, they're jointly attending in a group. And then, and they're, I mean, you can't really hear music, uh, that, that well in a classroom, if you're wandering around and while there's music happening in the other place, and then if you wanted them to stay in a group, you can, rather than have the music loud enough, where it wouldn't matter where they are, you can turn it down.
[00:35:33] Matthew: So they have to be closer. So then they know there's, they're there. And that's like a way of passive influence without, uh, necessarily telling, go, Hey, come over here. Come over here. You turn their favorite song on, turn the volume down. Now they got to come over and be in a group. And then they only be for two or three minutes.
[00:35:48] Matthew: Um, and it's a simple song, but I think that's kind of an interesting way. To use it and again that might even be Anyone singing it could be just you turn on a song and it's soft enough where they have to be close to you And now you've created the group, um for them to practice being in. 
[00:36:04] Garrett: Yeah, that's great.
[00:36:05] Garrett: That's so that's powerful You know, I it reminded me of or it just brought to mind an image of someone whispering, you know in a in a When people are talking and then you start to whisper, it can signal something, you know, you take that message more seriously because of the contrast in a way, um, sometimes.
[00:36:24] Garrett: And so, and, and it also sort of engages that attention in a different way. Um, and so I think maybe that contrast. Is important. Something you're mentioning earlier. That's that. I think maybe we could talk about this a little bit, too, is how, um, in homes. Now, I think that there's a lot of background noise going on all the time.
[00:36:47] Garrett: And what it's doing is, um, reducing the signal to noise ratio. So there's more noise happening, um, in houses. Now that's not related to, um, You know, um, something meaningful in the speech stream and that's, uh, you know, uh, damaging to the, the sound mind, the, the brain that's developing. And, you know, um, when you have music, I think you had told me this, the music is, is always, almost always signal.
[00:37:19] Garrett: Is this meaningful when you hear music, even in the absence of semantic meaning. Um, it's engaging, um, you know, it, it draws out emotion. It has this meaning inherent in, in the music stream. So, you know, when you have more music, you have kids attending more to this auditory stimulus and therefore exercising their, their, their brain, their sound brain.
[00:37:48] Garrett: Yeah. So I think music is one way to kind of talk about this signal to noise ratio and, and, um, maybe provide some, some way to. Tip the scales in our favor. 
[00:38:01] Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. I think one thing it can help with is it can help, um, differentiate, uh, hearing from listening because hearing's passive listening is, uh, is, is active.
[00:38:13] Matthew: And, um, it's so, I mean, if you, in the, just to kind of give an example of this, I mean, let's say someone drops a book on the ground and you flinch, I mean, that's your acoustic reflex going off and you look behind you where, you know, what is that? Um, But then you can get desensitized to that because I mean, let's say you saw one book drop and you say, okay, whatever It's just books and then more books drop and then you don't flinch again.
[00:38:37] Matthew: And so and then your brain will filter it out It's not meaningful. It's not a threat. It's just some books and someone's behind you doing something I think that that can happen in households where there's maybe there's Two TVs on, there are two TVs on at once or there's just constant just kind of background noise.
[00:38:54] Matthew: I'm picking on the TVs in the background because I find that that definitely, um, because it might have music or just sound effects and speech that can, um, That can be filtered out. I mean, maybe that's filtered out by our thalamus because it's not meaningful sound and then your brain's like okay That's noise, whatever And so maybe you're hearing it and recognizing it, but you're not you're not decoding it for meaning as opposed to listening If there's no background sound, and then a song comes on, now, uh, and, and then the person is, uh, you know, hears the sound, because there was silence before, now you can start to listen.
[00:39:34] Matthew: Or, you can say the same thing where, well, why is that, how is that related to speech? Well, if there's tons of background sound in an environment, now you have noise, and then someone starts to talk, and let's say a person's looking at a phone, and there's background noise, then, uh, and, you know, let's say a kid's looking at a phone, and then the parent comes and says something to them, that might also get filtered out, even though the parent's in front of them talking to them, that might not be true.
[00:40:02] Matthew: They might not register it. Maybe they'll hear it. They might not register it or be listening. They'll notice, oh, someone's talking too, as opposed to, um, if there's silence and they're not on their phone with, with sound, and then someone says something, there's a better chance that, um, that it can activate a listening mechanism.
[00:40:21] Matthew: Cause to me, listening is hearing plus attention. Um, and, uh, if you're attending to something And you can hear it. Now you can listen because you're, you're, you're taking in sound and then trying to sign meaning to it. I think that's, that's the thing that's different about listening than hearing. And really, we all have to be listening to speech modeled to us.
[00:40:42] Matthew: I mean, even if we imagine ourselves, like for me, I pick some language. I can't speak. I mean, maybe Romanian or something. I can't, or something like that. I cannot speak that. Um, so I would have to hear it. Repeated a lot of times I have to be listening to I would have to hear it and I have to be listening to it And then I'd have to be Listening to it in context, to be able to make sense of it, because it's different sounds, different prosely, all that stuff.
[00:41:07] Matthew: So we can, if we imagine children in the same boat, where they, when, when they're learning to communicate, when they're learning to use words and recognize them, and connected speech, it's important to see that if they're listening, as opposed to hearing, um, a signal, and that's just like a musician. If someone just plays music and you can hear it.
[00:41:28] Matthew: What if you have to learn the song? You definitely can't learn songs very well. If you can hear them, you have to learn, you learn songs by listening to them. 
[00:41:36] Garrett: Yeah, I have found that to be true. When I, when I was learning to play music, the best thing I think that I did for myself was trying to. And I didn't do this intent, uh, you know, it was just something that was interesting to me is that I sat down and I tried to figure out the chord structures for songs.
[00:41:53] Garrett: Like it was just so interesting to me that I, um, would sit, listen, uh, you know, I have all the CDs back then. So you had to, you know, rewind, but then just have the guitar and then just try and figure out what was going on. That's, um, you know, engaging intention. And, and listening and, you know, it maps to this, um, you know, we have two pathways, um, in our brain, one that goes up towards the brain.
[00:42:17] Garrett: So from the ear to the brain, that's the afferent pathway. And then one that goes from the brain to the ear, that's the efferent pathway. So when you get a sound, it goes up, it's processed in your brain, um, by the sensory motor and reward system and something happens. Um, so it could be nothing. And like you're saying that maybe the thalamus would, uh, make that just turn into noise and that changes your default response to the sound.
[00:42:42] Garrett: So the, the efferent pathway, the one that's going back down to the ear, it affects all the sound that you then hear after that. So when you learn a language, right? You, you have, um, the sound goes in, you have this, uh, Context you're, you know, looking at someone's face and, and, you know, you try and say something and then they react and you're like, yes, that was the thing.
[00:43:02] Garrett: And then, so your brain's like, sweet, that's awesome. That must be the thing. So now when you hear that, the thing that they said before, and this context that you're a part of it, it's going to light up. And so it changes our default response to sound. That's like the, the, how the, the brain is working. And so that, that whole process is also really, um, you know, Helped by music, by, um, trying to process sound because when we, the more attention that you pay to sound and all the parts of it, um, the more that, that your brain is attuned to try and figure out what's going on in the sound.
[00:43:41] Garrett: And, you know, on the, on the flip side, the more that you see sound as something that's not important, the more that you'll kind of start to tune it out and it won't be important to you. Um, so yeah, I think, yeah, it's just a really critical for actually for, for a lot of, especially young parents and for SLPs to, you know, talk about this as well to the parents that, Hey, um, you know, attention and listening.
[00:44:09] Garrett: And I love that hearing listening distinction. That's that's so huge. That's great. Yeah. Sort of like the different pathways. Yeah. 
[00:44:16] Matthew: Right. Right. I mean, cause I think, maybe, uh, it can be so easy to, um, think, um, Oh, uh, my child doesn't understand speech or he doesn't understand what I'm saying. And I'm, and that's really hard to tell.
[00:44:31] Matthew: I mean, all we know is that they're, what they didn't respond to what you said. Let's say some parents will say, Oh, he doesn't understand. two step directions or one step directions or doesn't understand the meaning of, you know, X word. Well, I mean, uh, are we sure about that? Because like when they, when you're talking to them, are they hearing you or are they listening to you?
[00:44:52] Matthew: Because if they're, if they hear you talking, if they, I mean, because that's how it is for me. Um, I can take an example for myself. Because I'm, uh, I'm always practicing French and I'm not that great at it because I just, I don't have a lot of chance to practice it. Um, and I can pick out little words here and there, but if someone speaks fluently, it's, oh geez, I mean, uh, even though when I'm listening, uh, it, it's, it's hard for me to ferret or to, to distinguish, well, what, what's this word?
[00:45:21] Matthew: What's that word? However, uh, if I'm listening really intently and people are speaking Yeah, two word utterances, three word utterances. Okay, see now I can make sense of it, but as soon as There's um, connected speech or it's at a conversational level. Now I can only hear it. I really can't listen to it. Um, so, uh, it's just, it does not process.
[00:45:43] Matthew: And so, I think that's something interesting, uh, to, to look at in terms of, uh, speech therapy interventions. Is it before we think someone has a receptive language disorder, uh, uh, and then there's no, they've got no, you know, head trauma. They've not had meningitis and we've gone down the list of, uh, every, their hearing's fine.
[00:46:02] Matthew: They got, they don't have, uh, you know, conductive or, uh, sensory neural hearing loss. And you're thinking, why don't they understand words? Well, maybe we are, we need to take a look at, are they only hearing language or are they listening to it? Um, because if they're listening to it, um, there, there must be value and what's being said because, um, you know, whatever with young kids, I mean, like, if I say something like, um, you know, want to go outside and, and, and then when, when they say yes, uh, then, and then something changes and we can go outside.
[00:46:35] Matthew: Well, when they hear that. , and if there isn't, if there isn't a lot of background noise, then when I say you want to go outside and they say yes, well, then they know they're going to go outside. And so then, um, when, when they hear that phrase, they're going to listen to it and then it's going to map out into, well, what's going to happen next.
[00:46:53] Matthew: Again, that's very similar to how musicians operate when they're, Um when they're improvising because let's say someone, um, and you're playing jazz if someone Plays a certain phrase oftentimes they play it twice and if they play a third time you're supposed to be listening to it Because maybe it's going to tell you something's going to happen next, or they want you to play it too, or they want you to, or they want to give you a cue of some sort.
[00:47:17] Matthew: , so being able to hear information and then listen to it and then drive meaning from it. We want to figure that out first before we think, well, oh, they got a receptive language disorder. Um, so I've always been big on that is making sure that, um, are, are we positive that, that when you're speaking, it's not noise and that it's actually meaningful because, uh, that that's a big distinction.
[00:47:45] Matthew: And, and that's again, that's a, even though that's not music per se, but it's a principle taken from music. I 
[00:47:52] Garrett: think that's critical. And, and, uh, and it, you're, you're, when you talked about the French example, it reminded me of my first time going to like a, It was actually downtown SF somewhere. They're doing a jazz jam night.
[00:48:08] Garrett: And I was,, I was in high school. So I thought I knew what I was doing. And then I went to a jazz jam and they, they just counted off some tune and like, just started playing. And I, I had, I was. It felt like, you know, someone just started dumping a waterfall on me or something. I just had, you know, I was not, I was not, I couldn't listen at that point.
[00:48:27] Garrett: Like I didn't have the, I didn't have the ability yet, uh, to, to really listen and respond. Um, it was just too advanced for me. So that happens in music too. Right. Right. Um, I, we have a, uh, I wanted to leave a bit of time for, I know we have a couple of questions already, which is, is cool. But I wanted to ask you first, there's some critical questions that, that I need to ask all the guests.
[00:48:53] Garrett: And one of them is, uh, what five, uh, albums would you take with you on a desert island? 
[00:49:00] Matthew: What, five albums? Oh, man. Um, well, uh, I'd say number one would be probably live at the Village Vanguard by John Coltrane. Uh, that would probably, that'd be like the, you know, maybe the whole set. Um, because it's just, to me, I, I think, and it's not even the greatest recording quality.
[00:49:21] Matthew: I mean, they just, someone just put a mic in the room and then, and they, It's just, uh, I just love that album so much. I've listened to it probably 200 million times. Um, and so, uh, so that's definitely at the top and, uh, let me see, boy, the other four, um, I mean, most likely kind of blue by Miles Davis. Um, and, uh, then I have to include, um, I mean, the white album, I mean, that that's, you know, you gotta have that, um, by the Beatles and then, uh, Hmm.
[00:49:54] Matthew: I don't know. Maybe Shut Up and Play Your Guitar by Joe's Garage. Or no, sorry, Shut Up and Play Your Guitar or Joe's Garage by Frank Zappa. And, uh, the last one. Oh, I don't know. It has to be an Alan Holdsworth album. Um, 
[00:50:10] Garrett: oh man, 
[00:50:11] Matthew: I'm not sure what, um, what, what is it? Um, was it the 12 men of cane, something like obtain or something like that?
[00:50:18] Matthew: I can't, was that the one that was, uh, the, um, 
[00:50:20] Garrett: 12 
[00:50:21] Matthew: or 
[00:50:22] Garrett: 10 men of taint. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. That, that's a, wow. What a ending. Uh, yeah, I love that. This is, this has been one of my favorite questions. Cause you know, I, Um, of all the guests, you know, everyone has such different, crazy, different, um, musical taste.
[00:50:42] Garrett: And, uh, I, I found a little bit of, uh, something in, in everyone's taste. I mean, I think like Chucky, the last guest and you, we all love jazz. So I think kind of blue is the, is the, um, The top most, uh, or at least there was two people that said kind of blue. So that's the top thing. Oh, actually the white album.
[00:51:06] Garrett: I think someone might've mentioned as well. I'll have to go back and check. Someone said, what about Dylan? Yeah, definitely. Um, I feel like that might be up there, like having some poetry, you know? Uh, I feel like would be, be. An important contrast to the, you know, the coal trade, like walls of fourths and all the crazy stuff going on.
[00:51:30] Garrett: Um, but yeah, awesome. Uh, thank you so much. I wanted to open it up for, for any questions that people had. I know someone had asked in, uh, the Q and a. Sylvia, thanks for your, um, your question. So, um, she asked, have you used call and response as a language teaching tool, um, typical in Afro Caribbean music, um, incorporate rhythm as well as pitch can be done with just, uh, imitation with younger kids and also use expansion with older kids.
[00:52:00] Garrett: I've used this and would like to hear your ideas. Yeah, definitely. Do you have anything to say? I, I think that's a great example. Yeah. 
[00:52:08] Matthew: Yeah. I mean, that's a great example. Uh, um, actually, I mean, it's probably one of the best ways to learn stuff to, uh, it's whether an instrument, um, or a, uh, or, or speech. And then it's, I mean, and it sounds cool.
[00:52:23] Matthew: So maybe for people don't know what call and response is, um, It's basically, um, some, someone will play a phrase, and then someone will answer that with maybe the same phrase, or, or a slightly different phrase, and then, um, uh, When I say boots, you say cats. Something like that, right? That's right. Exactly.
[00:52:46] Matthew: You know, in drumming, there's a,
[00:52:51] Matthew: that's called Big Sid. That's like the most common, uh, kind of, uh, it's almost like a call and response because you have the diggity do, bat, diggity do, bat, diggity do, bat, bat. So, I mean, it's, uh, I absolutely love call and response. I think it's a great way because it uses imitation. In a functional way that's um, and then you can imitation and repetition which are um key, um, uh, you know Pieces of teaching and learning so that was a great suggestion.
[00:53:21] Matthew: So yes. Yeah. Thanks. So yeah 
[00:53:23] Garrett: Yeah, I think the the um Getting back to the hearing and versus listening piece. Call and response is one of the best ways to distinguish that because you have to be listening. If you want to be participating in something like a call and response. Yeah. And it's fun, man. You go to a concert, uh, even a, even a, A baseball game or something like that.
[00:53:45] Garrett: You know, they all have, they all use call and response as a way to engage and, um, engage the crowd and get people on the same wavelength, so to speak. So that's a really cool one. Um, maybe while, uh, if there's any more questions, people are, are free to, to ask, um, but, uh, if we have any, do you have any other, um, maybe advice for SLPs thinking about, um, using music in their practice, um, any advice in general for, for younger SLPs?
[00:54:22] Matthew: Yeah, I mean, I would say one is you don't have to be a master musician. To use music, especially when you think of it as a you're using it as a tool Um, I mean one way to kind of forgive yourself if you if you don't feel like you're an amazing musician. I mean uh Some people use a pen for handwriting other people can draw masterpieces with the same pen I mean, we it's still a tool we can use For our own purposes.
[00:54:47] Matthew: So I think if you think of it that way, um, uh, it can, because it can be kind of intimidating. You know, I'm thinking, Oh, are people judging me? Um, but when you look at it as a tool for the things we're talking about, um, I, I, I feel it can really help. And then the other piece is, um, Spending a little bit of time understanding how music's put together and, and how, how it, uh, how it works can kind of help you understand language.
[00:55:17] Matthew: I mean, that's kind of one of the principles I've used. And, uh, we didn't really talk about this too much in the, um, show, but just, I've gotten into, , artificial intelligence or machine learning and automation and, uh, and, uh, just knowing, learning how things work, studying another thing, uh, it can, you know, in one area can help you understand something else in a different area, which is transfer learning.
[00:55:40] Matthew: And so, uh, learning a little bit about music and the sound system, the structure with it. And, and I just might give you some insights into, into language that you may not have had if you hadn't studied this. a little bit, not, you know, I mean, you don't have to go to music school for it, but just a little bit of knowledge about how it works.
[00:55:59] Garrett: Yeah. A little curiosity for the, the things, you know, sort of the magic, uh, that we hear every day, uh, you know, music can be really, really, um, man, I can think of not very many other things that struck me so emotionally as music did when I was, you know, even, even now, but you know, when I was a kid and, you know, you heard it.
[00:56:22] Garrett: song that you really liked the first time. It's like, man, that, that feeling is, it's hard to match. 
[00:56:27] Matthew: Right. 
[00:56:28] Garrett: Yeah. Being curious. I mean, that, that was, that was my whole, uh, reason for starting to play. It was just like, I was so cool. It was so cool to me that I had to figure out what was going on. And, and somehow going down that road has led to becoming a SLP and talking about music and speech and how they're made.
[00:56:49] Garrett: Yeah. Yeah. 
[00:56:51] Matthew: I'd say one last piece too. I did one last thing is if let's say you have never played before it's, it would be really good, even if you're an experienced SLP to just, you know, to, to be a beginner, to feel what it learned, what it feels like to learn a very complicated system that's associated with sound and communication, because it might change your insights as to like, well, where, where, what place are the people I'm helping coming from?
[00:57:17] Matthew: And when you yourself will put yourself in that, in that position, it can kind of help you understand how the experience that the clients or patients you're working with might feel. 
[00:57:27] Garrett: I love that. There's one, there's an empathy assignment that you had, Mentioned to me a long time ago of like trying to telling the parent to learn how to speak in a British accent and then come back and, um, yeah, I think those empathy assignments are great.
[00:57:43] Garrett: Cause you know, one thing that we come in, you don't come into the world necessarily, or, um, you know, in music, if you study music, you're not already an expert usually, you know, sometimes you are, but in most of the time, you know, because it's so. Ubiquitous and pervasive and we need it. We were experts in speech by the time where, you know, we're in school.
[00:58:03] Garrett: And so you don't have, you know, you go through 20, 30 years of not remembering and not really realizing that you've developed this incredibly complicated, uh, system, this medium of delivery speech, this, this incredible thing that we have, um, you know, and have that empathy of going back and, you know, I.
[00:58:26] Garrett: I remember trying to play guitar at the left hand, you know, instead, and like having that is like, Oh, now I can sort of remember how I, how I didn't know what I was doing and, you know, how I helped someone teach or learn, learn this skill. So sorry. Bethany also had a question really quick. So she has a kiddo, that has.
[00:58:48] Garrett: Uh, been demonstrating anemia because of seizures, presenting with some facial like symptoms. And, um, she's asking how you might recommend using music to help her recall. ADL vocabulary, activities of daily living. 
[00:59:01] Matthew: Oh, okay. Um, well, I would say, well, first I'd figure out like, well, key, what are key areas that she's focusing on requests?
[00:59:08] Matthew: , I mean, we usually, we think of like requests, requests, refusals, commands, you know, um, and, , maybe, um, work on responses. Um, so, um, I don't know what in terms of, uh, her is she is having a hard time retrieving single words. Um, if she's having a hard time retrieving single words, then I would, um, offer, I would focus on yes and no.
[00:59:32] Matthew: , so teacher, first to have a, um, a set of question or maybe a question where you know that she wants something. So, you know, you maybe do a preference assessment, you know exactly what she wants. And then, um, you could say, do you want it? And she might say no, no, or she might say yes. So, but, uh, to get her to learn, yes, what I would do is always have something that she wants.
[00:59:55] Matthew: And then maybe ask her in a, and and, you know, in a singing, uh, voice. And then, um, if she doesn't answer and she's reaching, then you could model, um, yes. In a pitch. Um, and then when she, when she, uh, she says yes, or maybe she can imitate you, then give it to her and then repeat the same thing for no. So have something, you know, she doesn't want, like a crumpled up piece of paper.
[01:00:17] Matthew: Ask her the question. And, and a series of, you know, simple, uh, melody, or maybe it's two pitches. And then, um, if she, if she's pushing it away, replace the pushing away with Maybe like no or something and then when she's When you model it and she copies you then you can say, oh, okay, and then take it away So maybe something simple like that.
[01:00:37] Matthew: I don't know what place she's coming from but if she's uh, you know Trying to if having a tough time retrieving yes and no and in response to questions that might be a place to start 
[01:00:48] Garrett: Yeah, that's awesome. It says really like using mit in combination with call and response in combination with um, uh in the functional context, let's say Of how everything's going so it could be reinforced better.
[01:01:00] Garrett: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that question, Bethany. Uh, and Sylvia said, thanks. Uh, totally agree about the beginner concept. You guys rock. Thanks for a great presentation. Thank you so much for your, uh, um, your feedback. Really appreciate it. Um, it's been just so fun, uh, for me. Uh, and love talking to you always Matthew and catching up.
[01:01:25] Garrett: You're a huge inspiration to me personally, and I always learn so much talking with you. And so, um, Uh, maybe where can people find you if they want to, uh, to learn more about what you're doing? 
[01:01:36] Matthew: Well, that's, uh, very kind, man. I mean, that's, uh, thanks for inviting me. And, uh, if you're interested in seeing the kind of, or hearing about, or seeing the things I'm doing, or you want to connect with us, where I'm, our, our company's called Eye Therapy.
[01:01:49] Matthew: Um, and so we have, uh, you can find us at I therapy LLC, or you can look up my stuff. Um, most of the things I do by myself are under the name drum language. And so I have my own website. You can go to, it's called drum language. You kind of tell, talks about my background and things I'm up to. Uh, I'm also on LinkedIn under my name, Matthew, uh, Google miss, and then.
[01:02:12] Matthew: Uh, but I'm on Instagram and, uh, and I even have a TikTok account. We'll see how long that lasts, but so, um, but, uh, it's under all the same name, uh, uh, drum language. 
[01:02:24] Garrett: Awesome. Any last remarks or, uh, anything you'd like to leave us with? 
[01:02:29] Matthew: Uh, well, I, I hope, uh, I, I, that after having watched this, you might have a different view of, of music as not just a, something for entertainment or, or performance, but it's actually, it can be a tool and, and a really useful tool and practical, and then there actually is a research to back up this stuff.
[01:02:48] Matthew: If you're needing research to justify this stuff, I would recommend looking up Daniel Leviton, who's a neuroscientist, who studies music. And, uh, I hope you could try, uh, out some of the suggestions or think about some of the things we've spoken here and kind of start your own journey with this. 
[01:03:07] Garrett: Love that.
[01:03:08] Garrett: , and, , thank you so much, everyone for joining and thank you. And we look forward to seeing you again. Take care, everyone. All right. Bye. 
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