SEASON 13 EPISODE 1

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:13.9] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to SLP Learning Series, a podcast series presented by SpeechTherapyPD.com. The SLP Learning series explores various topics of speech-language pathology. Each season dives deeper into a topic with a different host and guests who are leaders in the field. Some topics include stuttering, AAC, sports concussions, teletherapy, ethics, and more. Each episode has an accompanying audio course on SpeechTherapyPD.com and it is available for .1 ASHA CEUs. Now, come along with us, as we look closer into the many topics of speech-language pathology.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:04.2] GSO: Hi everyone, howÕs it going? My name is Garrett Scooter Oyama. IÕm so excited to be back with SpeechTherapyPD.com as a host for this mini-podcast series, and itÕs called, Tunes For Talk, Music as a Tool for Language Intervention, and today is the very first installment and is titled, Musical Journey and Their Connection to the Field of Speech-Language Pathology, and just a tiny bit of background since today is the first installment. 

I am in fact a speech therapist, who is also a musician prior to starting this career. So, music is really my first love and itÕs my absolute pleasure to talk about how music and speech and language are all related and how music can actually be a practical tool for therapy in a lot of ways. So, before we get started, thereÕs a few items that Š just to alert you to. So, this course is one hour and is offered for .1 ASHA CEUs. 

As far as any financial disclosures go, we, me and Dr. Erik, we receive an honorarium from SpeechTherapyPD.com. But other than that, thereÕs nothing and so, IÕm just honored and excited to have the first guest be the amazing, Dr. Erik X. Raj. Erik holds a certificate of clinical competence from ASHA and heÕs a practicing speech-language pathologist who works together with children and adults with various communication difficulties. 

He is currently an associate professor in the Department of Speech-Language Pathology at Monmouth University in West Long Branch New Jersey, where heÕs also the director of the meaningful digital experiences research lab and before venturing into the world of speech pathology he was a Š he navigated the vibrant landscape of rock and roll as a passionate musician. 

And as a former member of various rock bands, discovered the profound language embedded in music, a universal form of communication that transcends boundaries, resonates with diverse audiences, and just one of the most positive people IÕve ever met. IÕm always smiling after talking to this guy. So, so excited to have him on today. How are you doing Erik?

[0:03:25.5] EXR: IÕm doing fantastic. WeÕre going to come together, weÕre going to make some music, am I right? ThatÕs what conversation is.

[0:03:30.5] GSO: Exactly, exactly. WeÕre going to be yeah, putting Š making these harmonies happen, trying to stay in rhythm, and just first of all, you know, like, reading this bio, just knowing you a little bit, I feel like you win the, you know, most interesting man in speech pathology award but you just got like a million hats, you know? Working in this meaningful digital experiences research lab as the director, you know, doing music as well, opening for Š what was that band that you opened before, recently?

[0:04:06.7] EXR: Hot Chelle Rae, remember that?

[0:04:07.1] GSO: Hot Chelle Rae, thatÕs right, yeah.

[0:04:08.8] EXR: ItÕs great.

[0:04:09.8] GSO: A throwback for anyone out there.

[0:04:10.9] EXR: ThatÕs right.

[0:04:12.4] GSO: And then also, you know, teaching and all of these. IÕm just wondering, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself, whatÕs your kind of superhero origin story? Where did all these things come from?

[0:04:25.2] EXR: For sure. So, like you and like everyone listening and watching this, I have this real passion for this broad thing that is communication, right? And from a really young age, I was always exposed to music, and what a joy that is to be able to really think back to your younger self, right? And play the movie in your mind and like, I hear the soundtrack. Like, it is loud and itÕs very obvious to me that you know, at that young age, I was picking up on like the rhythm, right? And I have a lot of memories of listening to Michael Jackson and Š

[0:05:07.7] GSO: Oh, yes.

[0:05:09.1] EXR: I mean, thereÕs just so much emotion, thereÕs so much Š you can almost like, taste the music in the same way that you would taste like your favorite ice cream, you know? So, as a child, I was always listening to music, always exposed to music and I loved how sometimes music scared me because if it was a louder song, youÕre just like, frightened. Other times, music would make me smile because itÕs this particular melody that just hits your heart in all the right places, right?

And, as I kind of fast forward a little bit, I started this like, rock and roll band with my friends when I was 13 and that really allowed me to think about communication in like this deep way because we were making music and the music was really crafted in a way to connect with the audience, right? So, in a young, young way, in my younger years, I was thinking very passionately about communication. 

So, it made sense that like, my world kind of just evolved in a way where I discovered the field of speech-language pathology and then I was able to really dig into this beautiful instrument that is our voice and I just Š I am truly grateful to be able to kind of try to create this bridge between our wonderful field and also this beautiful art that is music, you know?

[0:06:29.7] GSO: Totally. So many things that you mentioned there that it just brought back memories. I remember having this Michael Jackson cassette tape and just dancing to it in the bathroom, thatÕs such a strong memory. ItÕs funny how music, and you know, they show this, it connects so strongly to like, emotion, and memory centers in the brain and you know, like you were saying, trying to make these connections. 

ThatÕs just another way that music can help is that like, it acts as a, you know, a memory enhancement for things that weÕre trying to learn.

[0:07:01.7] EXR: Yeah, and itÕs so beautiful how you mentioned this idea of just like dancing, right? So, you and I, as communication specialists, we understand how like, the body is another form of communication, right? And when I think about my younger clients, sometimes they come to the table and they might be a little bit apprehensive to kind of use their words. So, what better opportunity that might be for me to just like, pull up YouTube and just play a song and then kind of just see what happens? 

And nine times out of 10, the child does start doing a little bit of a move, and if that child isnÕt doing a little bit of that move with the rhythm, then I kind of start it off and itÕs like a yawn, you know? Like, I yawn, then they yawn from a dancing perspective.

[0:07:50.6] GSO: Oh, really?

[0:07:51.9] EXR: And boom, weÕre communicating in a very real way, and thatÕs a foundation for other things to be beautifully built on top of.

[0:07:59.8] GSO: I love that, yeah, itÕs such a door. You know, music is you know, known to connect people and thereÕs all this research showing that when you listen to Š when youÕre all listening to the same rhythm or youÕre all doing a drum beat together or youÕre all you know, clapping together or something like that, thereÕs this thing called rhythmic entrainment. YouÕre all synchronized to this rhythm together, and after that happens, people actually become more Š they get nicer to each other. 

They want to work better together, theyÕre more collaborative. ItÕs such amazing stuff to think that that comes from just listening to music but if Š I mean, I found that true. I know youÕve played in bands before and my experience is that like, if I play music with someone like IÕm nine times out of 10, IÕm going to be like, better friends with them after or IÕm going to at least, try and understand their point. ThereÕs this something that like, connects you when you play music together with someone.

[0:09:01.7] EXR: ThatÕs beautifully said. I think some of that has to do with this idea of trust because when youÕre being so authentic with your voice, and I'll use that loosely, it could be traditionally the thing that we use thatÕs you know, happening right here in our mouth, right? But it could also be the guitar or the instrument. When we are authentically taking a chance and communicating with others, thereÕs a trust factor that youÕre going to show up. 

And like, the drums are going to come together in the right way, or the guitar is going to be there when it needs to be there, and thereÕs that harmonious synchronous experience that kind of just comes together and yeah, thatÕs based in our DNA and when we are on that plane of being so in sync, absolutely. You just are Š youÕre totally feeling the vibes and a byproduct of feeling the vibes is that the rapport is that much stronger and the ultimate friendship unit is that much more legitimate.

[0:10:00.4] GSO: Oh, totally. The rapport is so huge and I think itÕs something thatÕs under Š we just donÕt talk about it enough in speech pathology, the necessity for rapport because you know, you have so many kids that come in and I could think back like, I was kind of a shy kid. Like, when I went into, like you know, if I went into the strange place with this, you know, doctor that I had no idea what theyÕre doing, I wasnÕt just going to start talking to them automatically. 

So, you know, it makes sense that like, kind of having something that connects you like music, and having something that you get excited about, really kind of greases the wheels for communication to start flowing.

[0:10:42.4] EXR: Absolutely.

[0:10:42.8] GSO: I donÕt know if youÕve had that experience but yeah, IÕve had a few kids and in practice that itÕs like, they wonÕt talk at all but then when we start playing music in there, they open up.

[0:10:53.7] EXR: ItÕs such a beautiful thing and I totally get it. So, in the world that IÕm a part of, the therapy that IÕm doing is usually after school, right? So, the child is going to school from, letÕs say, I don't know, 8:30 in the morning until like, 3:30 in the afternoon. They are so tired, right? And now, theyÕre doing the whole speech thing at like 4:00. That, on top of this idea that they donÕt know who I am yet. 

If this is the first couple of sessions, theyÕre just like, ŅWho is this person?Ó So, for us to perhaps set a stage where they come in and we donÕt immediately say, ŅOh, letÕs start talking.Ó Because that could be overwhelming for some of our young friends, right? So, maybe we can ease into it a little bit and there might be just this random instrument on the table, and with a smile, I might look at a child and then I might look down at that random instrument. 

LetÕs say itÕs a tambourine, then I look up at the child, then I look down to the instrument and thereÕs this silent agreement that thatÕs there, and if youÕd like to touch it, letÕs see what happens and you know, when you touch a tambourine, itÕs just like, you hear the pings, you hear the clangs, and then from there, maybe that triggers a bit of a chuckle and then maybe, I might pick it up and I might drop it on purpose. 

And then I do like an overly Š an overly cartoonish, ŅOops.Ó And IÕm like, doing these big eyes and a big mouth, and then theyÕre laughing, and then they say, ŅHold on, let me try.Ó And then, weÕre playing catch now with the tambourine. So, it starts off in a musical way, and then it evolves into the instrument turns into a ball in some capacity and now, weÕre talking and the person forgot about how tired they are.

[0:12:41.7] GSO: I love that, I love that, and then I think one thing IÕve been thinking about recently, this might go off in a little bit of a tangent but I was going to get to the differences between speech and music and this is kind of a beautiful example of that, and that like music is more about play. Like youÕre kind of you know, in some ways, youÕre using the same physiological parts of your body to make music, especially singing. 

You know, singing and speech, letÕs say, those are Š arenÕt all the forms of communication music, obviously but kind of two of the main ones but what youÕre doing is a little bit different. Like, when you have speech, you have Š itÕs always, number one, a representation of something else. You have a symbol and youÕre talking about a cop and then you say this word and it represents something else. 

And itÕs in order to make things happen in the environment or a kind of get what you want in a way, thatÕs why we talk about communication functions, you know you want to request something, you want to reject something, you want to command or you know, I don't know, ask questions, something like that, and so thereÕs this kind of this thing with language that youÕre manipulating the world in some way, to some end. 

Not in maybe always a bad way but thereÕs something about trying to get something, and music is not a representation of something. It is in itself like, simply beautiful, and in that way, itÕs play, and itÕs exploring. ItÕs curiosity, itÕs this other aspect of the world and you know, I think with that, music can almost be a guide for our speech and practicing speech because it activates this other part of our brain in our world. 

And like, this whole interaction that youÕre talking about, the tambourine, it seems like such a beautiful example of that. ItÕs just starting with like, how do we play? ItÕs not like me trying to manipulate you to say something or you know, or some test or something like that. ItÕs just this like, exploratory play, and I love that like, music can be a way into that.

[0:14:59.8] EXR: And thatÕs something that we as clinicians can learn so much from if we take the time to actually think about that, this idea of play and what does that mean. In a lot of ways, I think play is this opportunity to try something out and if it ŅfailsÓ itÕs not a bad thing. ItÕs simply, what happens. So now, letÕs try again, and when we think about, letÕs say, jazz musicians, right? And theyÕre doing some wonderful improvisation. 

They have an idea as to where theyÕre going but ultimately, theyÕre kind of just going for it and sometimes it ŅworksÓ and sometimes, it doesnÕt and thatÕs okay. So, with our clients who are growing and evolving as communicators, I think taking chances is one of the best things that they can do and as clinicians, we can be intentional with designing an environment where that is celebrated, and music is one of those tools that can help really, all that stuff come to the surface.

[0:16:14.0] GSO: I love that. Yeah. It feels like jazz right now, like, improv and I love the music can be the framework and also a tool. Like, itÕs almost both because you come in, thereÕs like a musical mindset of like, you know, improvisation, like where youÕre playing with somebody versus like, you know, trying to get them to do something, and then thereÕs also music. So, thatÕs like, almost like using music as a framework and a way of thinking about it. 

And then, also, you know, you can use music itself as a tool, you know? Like youÕre saying before playing with the tambourine or listening or singing or any of those things.

[0:16:53.6] EXR: Oh, and how about, this oneÕs so beautiful, how about this? So, we have the music as a mindset, we have the music as the tool, and then maybe, in some way, we can have music as like, the third member of the actual therapy experience, right? Because we have client, we have clinician, and maybe itÕs like, just another participant because in the same way that you and I are communicating, the actual instrument or the music is another entity, if you will, that is communicating back with us.

So, like, itÕs a very legit triangle if weÕre thinking like, one-on-one therapy, client, clinician, and the music, that creates the triangle.

[0:17:30.8] GSO: I love that. 

[0:17:32.8] EXR: And you and I, weÕre getting deep here man.

[0:17:37.4] GSO: Yeah and I feel communication is so important. Like, itÕs so important to have that tried equality when youÕre Š you know, thatÕs what makes Š one thing that makes human communication deviate from animal communication is that like you know, thereÕs Š when you start to get joined attention where you have a kid thatÕs pointing and then the dad also looks at this other thing or the parent also looks at this other thing.

ThatÕs like one of the amazing things is that we can both direct our attention at this other thing and especially when itÕs music and itÕs something that is, you know? I meant it like music brings people together. I donÕt think thereÕs any argument with that, especially if you know, itÕs something that you both enjoy. So, totally, I think thatÕs beautiful.

[0:18:29.4] EXR: Yeah, man.

[0:18:30.1] GSO: When you Š I was wondering, you know if you see any, you know other Š so, IÕm thinking about this in a couple of different ways. So, when weÕre thinking about the theoretical overlap between speech and music, and the music obviously has like, kind of like a syntax and there are chunks that are like words and letters that you can form it together. Are there any other things that you see as connections at that level between music and speech?

[0:19:02.1] EXR: Yeah, I think from a language perspective, words matter and I think you and I and all of our colleagues, we believe that very deeply. So, I love listening to the rhythmic, the ways in which the audio hits me, right? But I also love thinking deeply about the words and when we can expose ourselves to certain words at the right point in time, it could really open up the doors for us in very real ways. 

I mean, and this is not anything breathtaking or groundbreaking because we know about the power of poetry, we know about the power of the written story. You know, we as a people, we recognize that there is beauty in words but there is something to be said when those words are paired with a bit of a rhythm that is intentional and it really paints those words in certain ways. 

So, you know, when you ask that good question, I just think about the times in speech therapy where if IÕm working with like, letÕs say, a teenager and I say to this teenager, ŅWhat are you listening to these days?Ó In an opportunity to keep on building rapport and then, theyÕll name a song, and IÕll say, ŅThat is a really good song.Ó Or if I donÕt know it, IÕm honest to them and IÕll say, ŅI donÕt know that song. Is it clean?Ó 

Like, ŅIs it okay if we try to listen to it?Ó You have to always make sure you can find that out first, you know?

[0:20:22.5] GSO: Yeah.

[0:20:23.8] EXR: You know the kids.

[0:20:24.3] GSO: IÕve been in that experience, for sure.

[0:20:25.5] EXR: Sometimes, theyÕre listening to the not-so-good but then, I listen to it and then I pause for a moment and I say, ŅWow, those are some interesting words, arenÕt they?Ó And it is so fun to have conversations with our friends who are growing and evolving as communicators, and how they attempt to share with you the words that mean something to them, and helping them to find the right ways to organize their mind in an opportunity to really showcase the "Why" behind they believe that sentence is so important and why they believe that it needed to be highlighted in that moment.

[0:21:09.1] GSO: Wow, thatÕs incredible. IÕve never thought about Š and even this activity that you just brought up of listening to a song and commenting on it. It Š thatÕs such a simple powerful activity and I think back to, you know, I always tell my parents to like, for kids that are working on carrier phrases or something, just look out the window and talk about what you see. ŅI see X, I see Y.Ó And then, what about like, you know, with music, thereÕs so many more doors that open that we donÕt think about.

ŅI hear this.Ó And I, you know, especially the words. Like, that word makes me feel, ŅI feel this.Ó And you know, I havenÕt ever Š sometimes I think about this but when I Š I talk with a lot of friends that are maybe non-musicians, not that thatÕs Š I think, everyone is hearing something valuable in the music but theyÕre hearing such different things than I am and itÕs Š thatÕs another tool thatÕs like, a theory of mind tool almost, like, ŅOh, you heard something totally different than I did.Ó

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[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]

[0:22:43.0] GSO: IÕm curious, what Š when you listen to music, kind of as a musician and a speech therapist, what do you listen to and what do you listen to and what do you listen for?

[0:22:53.7] EXR: So, IÕm a bass guy. You know, IÕve been playing the bass guitar my whole life. IÕm 40 years old right now, I just turned 40 and IÕve been legit Š

[0:23:01.6] GSO: Happy birthday.

[0:23:02.6] EXR: Yeah, thanks, man. IÕve been legit, playing bass since probably I was like nine years old. So, like, you know, this is like, more than half of my life. So, IÕm listening to the bass, the bass, thatÕs whatÕs up. ItÕs like a Š 

[0:23:14.4] GSO: Slapping the bass.

[0:23:15.3] EXR: Heartbeat. Of course, you know? And then the drums, like, you know, I think bass and drums have this beautiful co-relationship. So, thatÕs what IÕm really listening to. IÕm a bass guy and IÕm feeling those that thump-thump-thump, you know? ThatÕs whatÕs up.

[0:23:34.2] GSO: ThatÕs so cool. I love that. IÕm always hearing the Š IÕm also listening to the bass actually. The bass and the harmony is the first thing that pops out to me and as a musician, IÕm always trying to like, figure out what harmony it is first. ThereÕs like some calculation going on in my head every time I listen to a song. So, IÕm hearing like the, ŅOh, thatÕs the one, thatÕs the fourth.Ó

[0:23:56.2] EXR: Yeah.

[0:23:56.9] GSO: Et cetera. 

[0:23:58.0] EXR: And that harmony Š oh, IÕm so sorry.

[0:24:01.6] GSO: No, go ahead, go ahead.

[0:24:02.4] EXR: Oh, I was just going to throw out there, that harmony is perhaps a nod to the fact that you, as a clinician, are very collaborative because I think at its core, what is harmony? Well, itÕs a couple of different ones coming together at just the right pitch, at just the right timing, and then it just like, works. So, we as clinicians, we value the collaborative experience and I think thatÕs a good audio representation of what collaboration could kind of sound like.

[0:24:30.9] GSO: Yeah. It is that coming together of notes that makes things beautiful and interesting and the coming together, you know, think about both, in language and in music, is that you have a word or you have a letter or a sound and/or note, you know, in other case and they donÕt really mean anything on their own but itÕs like the combination and like, you know, the rhythmic differences between them and how it comes together. 

Like, the harmony, the glue, something that you know, thatÕs where the meaning comes from rather than you know, one piece of it itself.

[0:25:10.8] EXR: Perfectly said.

[0:25:13.2] GSO: Yeah. So, in terms of you know, maybe getting just a little bit more practical, when you are Š you mentioned a couple of different interventions. How Š I guess, has just being a musician informed you as a speech therapist? Have you taken anything from it or vice versa? You know, how has been a clinician informed their music playing? Is there anything in either of those?

[0:25:47.0] EXR: Yeah, thatÕs such a beautiful question. When we think about trying to grow as a performer, there are these real goals and objectives in our mind, right? So, early on in my journey as a musician, I was a big fan of Green Day and I remember being a younger guy and like, saying to myself, ŅI have a goal.Ó And that goal is, ŅI want to be able to play the base to every single Green Day song on the Green Day record called Dookie.Ó And I was a young person right there. A classic album, you know?

[0:26:23.2] GSO: Classic.

[0:26:24.5] EXR: So, like, I was a very young person there and I had this goal and I was able to have these short-term goals connected to eventually, what the long-term goal was, right? So, that was really neat for me to notice. So, IÕll be honest with you, I donÕt know necessarily if I noticed it, noticed it as a child but as I think about Š as I think back to that through the lens of a speech-language pathologist, wow, right? Goals, objectives, short-term, long-term, what do we need to do to build on in order to reach whatever the end goal is? And you know Š 

[0:27:05.2] GSO: Yes.

[0:27:05.8] EXR: Sometimes it takes time. As they say, ŅRome wasnÕt built in a day.Ó The same can be said for how we are all evolving as communicators and how some of us might be evolving as musicians. It takes time and you put in the work and ultimately, good things come from putting in the work.

[0:27:23.8] GSO: Definitely. Guitar was one of the first places Š because I was playing guitar since I was this Š about the same age as you and it was the first thing that I really tried to get better at. Like, consciously tried to get better at and I think just like you were saying before, not sure that I consciously recognized a lot of these things that were happening but as I got older and I, like, kind of reflected on the process of learning a skill and learning it to Š IÕm not going to say, ŅMastery.Ó 

But like, you know, playing at a professional level, you have to learn in a certain way. You have to know about how to learn other skills generally and itÕs helped me to do that and itÕs also helped me have a little bit of empathy for kids trying to learn speech because speech is this, you know, incredibly complex, rich, motor skill, complex motor skill that you know, people take it for granted and I think this is something thatÕs helped me work with parents a lot because I think most parents when their child is talking, they donÕt have anyone else in their life that has difficulties with talking.

They just think speech is something that happens like it grows like hair or like nails or whatever, and so the process of trying to show them, ŅOkay, speech is actually, thereÕs all these components of it.Ó ThereÕs, you know, we have to attend to something, we have to think itÕs important, we have to model it, we have to practice it, we have to, you know, understand its significance, like, all of that is happening at this, like, you know, incredibly complex neuro level and breaking that down into parts is something that I was able to learn from learning music, actually. So, I think thatÕs like, kind of what you're saying but Š 

[0:29:28.6] EXR: Totally.

[0:29:28.4] GSO: Yeah, I think itÕs also helpful for showing that, ŅHey, speech doesnÕt just happen. ThereÕs a physical process at work here too.Ó ItÕs a lot like learning an instrument.

[0:29:41.0] EXR: Yeah. Something similar that we could kind of think about it from like a therapy idea perspective is like, so you know, when we turn on the radio, right? When we open our Spotify app, when we hear that song, itÕs like the finalized complete version and a lot of people forget that it took a while to get to that finalized version. So, letÕs say you have a client who loves Taylor Swift, right? 

Very, you know, wonderful performer and thereÕs a high likelihood that someone on your case who likes Taylor Swift. So, you can perhaps go on YouTube and you could find whatever their favorite Taylor Swift song is but maybe Taylor Swift's song name, and then put in the word, ŅDemoÓ next to it, and I don't know because I never did Taylor Swift before but IÕd say, thereÕs a high likelihood you're going to find a different version of that song, which was a little bit younger if you will. 

A little bit less polished, if you will, and might that be an opportunity for you to kind of listen to that version and then maybe listen to the more radio version and see what are the differences, and then start to take guesses as to, ŅWell, what did Taylor have to do differently? Did she need to learn this particular style of guitar playing or did she need to practice this particular way of vocal inflection?Ó or something and that really just helps us to see that it takes time to keep growing and evolving, right?

[0:31:09.5] GSO: Totally. ThereÕs this I saw Š my wife works in music at Warner Tokyo and she Š and Ed Sheeran came for a concert just the other day and he had this, like little speech of, like, ŅHey, you know, listen to me when I was a kid.Ó And he pulls out this video and itÕs just him singing and itÕs like, just horrible, and then heÕs like, ŅThis is, I mean, this is the work in progress.Ó You know, you donÕt start, the first step to being kind of good at something is like sucking at it or something like that. 

ThereÕs some Adventure Time quote but yeah, I think thatÕs so important to note because I have a lot of kids now that I work with where itÕs very hard for them to make mistakes and it is very hard for them to not be good at something right away, and if they donÕt start out you know, automatically able to do this task, then they give up very, very quickly. So, definitely driving that point home is great and itÕs good to do it through music too. 

[0:32:17.0] EXR: Yeah. 

[0:32:17.6] GSO: Are there any other? Kind of getting more to the nitty-gritty, you mentioned you know, using some digital tools for music in speech and language intervention. 

[0:32:30.5] EXR: Yeah. 

[0:32:32.0] GSO: For the audience, can you talk about a few things that they might be able to use pretty quickly and easily or it doesnÕt have to be but anything that you find interesting and useful? 

[0:32:44.6] EXR: Absolutely. So, IÕm a big fan of like I said, the rhythm and the beat. So, I created this little website, itÕs completely free and it is accessible on any, you know, laptop as long as you got a keyboard attached to it. So, itÕs called drumdadum.com, so thatÕs Drum Da Dum, so drumdadum.com, and when you pull that up right in your web browser, you have the keyboard aligned with the traditional keyboard in front of you. 

So, itÕs like an A, S, D, F, G, H, J, K, L. I donÕt have that memorized, IÕm actually looking at my keyboard right here and youÕre able to hit A, S, it is going to be like a do-ch-do-ch. So, you go, A-S-A-S and thatÕs an opportunity perhaps to see if maybe you have a client who enjoys, I donÕt know, rap or hip-hop. ItÕs kind of simple for you to just go one-two-one-two and then see are you able to drop some beats, some rhymes. 

You can model some of that and then maybe you can hand it over to the clients and see if there can be a back-and-forth. So, IÕm all about accessibility and if you have access to the web browser, you can just pull that website up. ThereÕs also another website thatÕs very similar to drumdadum.com. I created Drum Da Dum because I was inspired by this website. So, this website is called patatap.com. 

So, itÕs P-a-t-a-t-a-p.com, so itÕs patatap.com and that is a very similar feeling and that you have access to your whole keyboard and when you press one of the buttons on your keyboard, it presents with you a different tone. Sometimes itÕs more bassy, sometimes itÕs more trebly, and thereÕs also this beautiful visual. So, it could be like lines going left to right or it could be kind of like a pop-up a circle or it could be something that looks like a Š maybe like lightning in the sky. 

So, youÕre kind of playing your keyboard and youÕre hearing some aspect of this musical experience but you are also visually seeing something that matches some of those intonations and I find that to be an unbelievable website. ItÕs completely free and it really opens up a lot of great doors for children and adults to start to have really random conversations, you know? 

[0:35:28.9] GSO: Patatap.com, I love that. 

[0:35:32.8] EXR: So fun. 

[0:35:33.7] GSO: Yeah. The one thing that made me think of is yeah, I wonder if we should talk about it, something like this too is having something like visuals for each of the sounds. You know, like the K sound might sound like a lightning bolt or you know, something a little bit more edgy and you know, having each of the phonemes be connected to some kind of visual, I wonder if that would be something helpful. 

[0:35:59.4] EXR: ThatÕs a spot-on idea, like thatÕs a therapy idea right there where you could pull up a random website like patatap.com and you could do like the K sound, right? And then you can ask the question like, ŅDo you think that sound that the website just shows you, do you think that really represents that K sound that youÕre making? What is a different version of how you think that could sound?Ó

So, like youÕre working, itÕs a kind of reinvent the way that it would sound and you know thatÕs Š for some children, they might really find joy in kind of critiquing the sounds that the website makes and kind of stating that they think it should be a different sound. 

[0:36:36.7] GSO: I love asking for the Š you know, your clients or the kids that you are working with, asking for their opinion, you know, getting them in the process. ThereÕs also, have you ever heard of this, the kiki/bouba study? 

[0:36:51.2] EXR: No, throw it at me. What is it? 

[0:36:53.2] GSO: ItÕs just a cog site concept and itÕs just that you know, the idea of most people say that language is an arbitrary system symbols that you know, represent concepts and things in the world but itÕs actually not totally arbitrary because there are words and sounds that we have embodied feelings about and we have these visual representations for it. So, they did this study and they have replicated this with many different things. 

But the first one was they had these two words kiki and bouba and then they have these two shapes. One was a spiky shape and one was like kind of a blobby round shape and theyÕre like, ŅWhich one do you think maps to which word?Ó And like 80% of people put like kiki with the spiky shape and you know, bouba with the round shape and you kind of like can Š might feel this, think the same way about those two things. 

So, basically, thereÕs like something that is also deep about our visual and spatial and embodied connections with sound that I think might be helpful for kids learning, maybe even with kids with like auditory processing issues or something like that. IÕm not sure, this is all speculative but it could be, it could be something interesting to look into for sure, thatÕs such a cool tool.

[0:38:30.6] EXR: ItÕs fascinating. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I got to look deeper into that, kiki and bouba, you know? 

[0:38:36.0] GSO: Kiki and bouba.

[0:38:36.9] EXR: Nice and yeah, when you think about the bo-, like your mouth is generally making like a circle shape. So, thatÕs deep in us that like the O would be like a rounder shape association and like kiki is like a Š itÕs a quick, itÕs like sharp, and maybe thatÕs like the spike if you will. 

[0:38:54.4] GSO: Yeah, I wonder if thatÕs even like if you look at the sound wave for it if it has some connection to it. I donÕt know. Yeah, but thereÕs so many. Thank you for sharing those, those are so cool. 

[0:39:10.3] EXR: Sure. 

[0:39:11.1] GSO: I mean, weÕve talked before about beatboxing, which is something IÕve talked about on the podcast before but you were mentioning that first thing where you have the beats, I love that and then thereÕs a beatboxing game called Rhyme on the Four, where you just have a rhyming word and you know, [making sounds 0:39:28.3] cat, bat, you know, and you go around the circle and you play and I feel like thatÕs such a cool game to get kids Š 

[0:39:38.2] EXR: That is fun. 

[0:39:39.1] GSO: Yeah, yeah. That can be used too with the Drum Da Dum.

[0:39:44.3] EXR: Yeah, totally. So, use that Drum Da Dum, you know? Go for it. 

[0:39:49.0] GSO: Yeah. 

[0:39:50.0] EXR: Let me know how it works. 

[0:39:51.2] GSO: Therapists are all Š theyÕre super creative. So, it is cool to hear when people come back with you know, therapists will take you know, a beatboxing idea and then have some way of implementing it. ThatÕs like, ŅOh, whoa. Why didnÕt I think of that?Ó So. 

[0:40:06.9] EXR: Oh, I know. I know. We are a wonderful breed of people. We are so creative as clinicians and I love how, you know, the Internet exists in a way where we can readily share with each other and you know, that idea then snowballs into other ideas and it just becomes so many different things and thatÕs the beauty of sharing with one another. 

[0:40:28.0] GSO: Definitely. Anything else that youÕve used, that youÕve tend to use in practice? 

[0:40:34.9] EXR: Yeah, you know what IÕve been doing? Yeah, like very consistently over the last couple of years, I have been really getting into whatÕs called Eurovision Song Competition, and for those of us that might not know what that is, itÕs very big in Europe and itÕs kind of sort of like American Idol if you will, where thereÕs a bunch of people that come together and they have a song and they perform the song and itÕs a big global event thatÕs not very popular in America. 

So, I mention that to say every like May-ish, April-ish is like the Eurovision Song Competition and these performers are representing countries, right? Sweden, Slovenia, like Poland, Germany, and whatÕs really interesting is IÕll Š IÕm a big fan, I listen to these songs and IÕll bring a couple of these songs to the therapy room and sometimes, the song is paired with a really cool music video and the cool thing is itÕs not uncommon for them to be speaking in a different language, non-English. 

So, itÕs so cool for us to first, maybe listen to the song, maybe watch the video, or maybe just listen to the song and weÕre hearing communication of course, but we donÕt quite understand it because we might not speak that language. So, what we can do is we can make guesses, we can come up, ŅWhat does our gut say the song might be about?Ó And then what we can do is we could go on Google, we can get the words. 

So, even if itÕs in German, you can copy and paste that German text and they could go on Google translate, drop it from German to English, and I know itÕs not perfect translation but it does give you a bit of a gist perhaps and then you could start to see, ŅDid I get the song right?Ó So, youÕre listening to the tones, youÕre listening to the songs, and sometimes, the children are spot-on, like the song thatÕs about love, like the children, they catch it and theyÕre like, ŅThatÕs about love. ThatÕs about love.Ó 

They might not even know the word love in that language but theyÕre like, ŅI feel like that word might actually mean love.Ó ThereÕs like an 80% chance children nail that.

[0:42:42.3] GSO: ThatÕs awesome. 

[0:42:43.5] EXR: So, we give them space to kind of explore the non-English music and wow, it is very eye-opening and itÕs a real nod to you know, the multicultural aspect, right? We can showcase stuff that might not be in their backyard per se and thatÕs helping them to grow as global citizens. 

[0:43:03.8] GSO: I love that. Yeah, thereÕs this one study that I heard about that was like they just had people, I think theyÕre English people listen to like Indian Ragas and try and guess what the intent and the emotions were behind, you know, and knowing nothing. These are people knowing nothing about Indian classical music and then having them listen to see if they were able to capture the you know, get the meaning or the gist of what the musicians are going for and theyÕre pretty spot-on. 

And it speaks to, you know, thereÕs this like deep universality in music, you know, transcending cultural boundaries, like even if we donÕt know the exact system or the tones. Like we have a sense of Š from the way the notes come together, the speed, you know, the articulation of the notes, all the super segmentals as we call them, we have a pretty good sense of what they mean. 

[0:44:05.4] EXR: I love that. 

[0:44:07.3] GSO: I think thatÕs really cool. 

[0:44:08.8] EXR: ThatÕs powerful and then another thing IÕll do with some people, not all people of course, because we recognize that music might not resonate with every single person but for the ones that does, I very often will say, ŅHey, letÕs start a band together.Ó And theyÕre like, ŅWhat? What does that mean?Ó And IÕll say, ŅWeÕre going to start a band.Ó And you know, sometimes it is more official and theyÕre like, ŅI have a guitar, you sing a song, and IÕm going to sing a song.Ó 

But other times, itÕs a little bit more on the silly side and that we have two pencils and weÕre going to be drumming on the table and weÕre going to just come up with lyrics and yes, thereÕs the coming up with the lyrics thing but then we can go beyond that. I might say to them, ŅWe got to design a band t-shirt because thatÕs how you make some money, got to make that merch.Ó So, like I take a white piece of paper, I draw an outline of a shirt and now, I can work on multistep directions, right? 

ŅBefore you color the shirt green, I want you to color the collar pink.Ó You know, we could talk about WH questions, ŅWhat animal makes a bark sound?Ó ŅDog.Ó ŅLetÕs put a dog on that shirt because we need to come up with some sort of a dog-related song, right? So, we start off with music and yes, weÕre doing audio-driven things but then we do other visually driven things too with designing the merch and I love doing things like that. 

[0:45:29.1] GSO: Man, I wish I had you as a teacher when I was a kid, man. That sounds awesome. Yeah, thatÕs such a cool activity. I love that, the whole process of someone goes along with that and itÕs so exciting. You know, I remember being a kid and I think I started a band about the same time this year, funny how our paths overlap in that way, as a garage band called International Pastime.

Like, we have this, you know, weÕre playing punk bop and stuff like that, it was really fun but yeah, we try to design a logo and thatÕs all what weÕre thinking about in school you know, for a while. 

[0:46:04.7] EXR: Absolutely. So, you are bringing together art, youÕre bringing together music, youÕre perhaps planting the seeds of entrepreneurialism into the childÕs mind, right? I love it. 

[0:46:18.6] GSO: I mean, and thatÕs one thing is that itÕs so Š I mean, especially for Š not for all kids like you are mentioning with, for those kids that love it, itÕs something that is just so exciting and rewarding that it can even be Š one thing that I was thinking about is that music changes your state so easily and itÕs something that can prep you. You know, letÕs say youÕre doing an activity that requires a lot of energy. 

You know, it can prep you for that action. It can, if you are feeling you know, you got kids that have difficulty sitting down or paying attention, you know you can increase focus by you know, listening to about music. So, youÕre getting ready, you are prepping for whatever activity youÕre going for and then also itÕs like rewarding. It can be its reward, their favorite song after finishing an activity or you know, itÕs like a lot of music can just be in this environmental way. 

Like queues, almost like behavioral queues or something, weÕre you know, setting the stage and then youÕre rewarding behavior, I guess. 

[0:47:34.4] EXR: Absolutely, and when we think about like auditory inputs, weÕre speaking a lot about music, which is the very structured form of like melody, right? And how about noise in general and what I mean by that is a couple of weeks ago, IÕm reading a story with a child and the story revolves around a river and in the background, I pull up a YouTube clip and I minimize it so that they donÕt see the video of it but they hear the audio. 

And I typed in Google, I typed in Ņriver noisesÓ or ŅstreamÓ or you know, something like that. So, like I have this playing in the background and you hear like the Ņshh-shhÓ and you kind of hear the wind too and the stream and it enhances the shared storybook experience that IÕm having with that child, right? And though itÕs not music per se, itÕs intentional noise that Š and I think you and I could argue, it is music in such a beautiful way. 

And itÕs just itÕs bringing another important layer to the speech therapy experience that I have intentionally designed for this young person. 

[0:48:54.0] GSO: Yeah, yeah. ItÕs cool, itÕs crazy what we can do now with YouTube and just bringing in Spotify and things like that, you can really you know, be an architect of your experience in your environment way more than we ever have had the opportunity to and like definitely and even something like youÕre mentioning the background sounds but you know, like brown noise and white noise and binary beats and things like that. 

There are these like frequencies that you can play that are you know, will be calming but I love the background stream. I have a lot of ambient nature noises in my house going on because itÕs the middle of Tokyo and thereÕs like construction and everything. So, I just need a little bit of peace but Š 

[0:49:43.4] EXR: And that does something to you, right? It settles you, it puts you in the right mind frame. 

[0:49:47.5] GSO: Yeah, absolutely. 

[0:49:50.3] EXR: You know whatÕs funny though? Like, when IÕll pull up these little songs, itÕs funny because like I donÕt pay for like a YouTube premium account. So like, almost always like the first thing we hear is like the shampoo ad or like the car ad. ItÕs like, ŅWait, hold on one secondÓ and they got to click, click skip ad, right? 

[0:50:11.7] GSO: I remember, yeah, back in the day I was listening to a playlist and there was like a, you know, just at a Š I forget what was happening. It was like a calming like weÕre trying to sit and meditate and there was like when ads were just starting on YouTube and then it was like, just right in the middle of silence it was like a huge loud car ad for something and I was like, ŅOh, man.Ó

[0:50:38.2] EXR: Yeah, itÕs like a record section, itÕs like, what? 

[0:50:41.4] GSO: Yeah. Well, now, I feel like we got to get to a couple of the really important questions that you know, if Š number one, what is your go-to karaoke song? 

[0:50:54.3] EXR: Goo Goo Dolls, ŌSlideÕ, I donÕt know if you know that song but thatÕs my jam every single time. ŅWhy donÕt you slide? Put your arms around me. What you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful.Ó ThatÕs my song man, Goo Goo Dolls. 

[0:51:11.8] GSO: Amazing, love it. 

[0:51:12.7] EXR: Give it a listen, audience, give it a listen. 

[0:51:15.4] GSO: WeÕll have to karaoke sometime. What is, if you were to take five physical albums with you on a desert island, except vinyl or CD, which albums would you take? 

[0:51:29.9] EXR: I would take Green Day Dookie. I would take The Killers' Hot Fuss, thatÕs a great album. So, again, IÕm starting like old, like Green Day Dookie was like Õ94 or something, Hot Fuss is like probably 2004 or something. Then I would say Š 

[0:51:49.2] GSO: A decade by decade. 

[0:51:51.1] EXR: Yeah, this band Neck Deep is really cool. TheyÕre from Wales, I would take The Piece and The Panic, I think itÕs called, 2017, thatÕs three, right? We need five, right? 

[0:52:03.0] GSO: Yeah. 

[0:52:03.4] EXR: Okay, cool. 

[0:52:03.9] GSO: Yeah, Dookie, Hot Fuss. 

[0:52:06.4] EXR: Neck Deep. 

[0:52:08.1] GSO: Neck Deep. 

[0:52:09.2] EXR: Goo Goo Dolls, whatever record. 

[0:52:11.4] GSO: Goo Goo Dolls, yeah, whatever what was on. 

[0:52:13.3] EXR: Goo Goo Dolls' greatest hits, thatÕs what I would be Š thatÕs number four and this band called Fireworks, theyÕre from Detroit, record came out last year. It is one of my favorite records. ItÕs called Higher Lonely Power, so. 

[0:52:27.5] GSO: Higher Lonely Power, you heard it folks. Well Š 

[0:52:31.4] EXR: Great question, thank you. 

[0:52:34.1] GSO: Yeah, of course. I wanted to open it up to I know we had a couple of questions and I wanted to just any questions that you might have and if not, we can still Š I mean, we can still Š I can talk to this guy for days. ItÕs so fun but if there is anything that you want us to answer. IÕm just going to go through here and look at the comments. So, it looks like Sheryl Godin said that sheÕs an SLP and her daughter is a classically trained opera singer. 

Awesome, ŅAnd we want to collaborate. Any ideas?Ó Cool, I love that. Always, always about collaboration, an opera singer, thatÕs super rare. Anything come to mind? 

[0:53:20.7] EXR: ThatÕs something I donÕt know much about and I say that intentionally because maybe from a collaborative experience, you can ask your daughter or you would ask the person who likes opera and is invested in that very legitimate genre to tell me about opera and to come with open arms to say, ŅI donÕt know much about it but I want to know more about it.Ó And thatÕs putting a client in a position where they are able to share with you. 

And sometimes, I think the client-collision relationship feels very lopsided and that the clinician is informing the client and I get it because we went to school to study this thing called communication sciences and disorders or whatever. So, we have stuff to give but whenever possible, we need to turn the table so that the client can give us something. So, thatÕs what comes to my mind. 

If I had a client that loved opera, I would soak up as much opera knowledge from that person so that I could become well-versed in it, and then from there, maybe some sort of collaborative thing naturally comes to the surface. 

[0:54:35.0] GSO: Yeah, definitely. I love the flipping the tables. The first thing that came to mind was just that opera singers are you know, known to be like the top one percent of people with healthy beautiful voices. So any voice clients or you know, might think of even using her as like a poster for you know, work on vocal, vocal exercise, vocal function exercises or something like that, I donÕt know. 

This is what came to mind but yeah, opera is I think something that needs to be Š you never hear about it. I havenÕt heard, even when I was a kid, opera wasnÕt a big thing. So, I donÕt think IÕve ever went or been to opera or you know Š 

[0:55:25.7] EXR: Me neither. 

[0:55:26.3] GSO: Just know more about it. 

[0:55:27.7] EXR: Well, dude, we know what weÕre going to do, next time we get together, we got to go to an opera show. 

[0:55:32.4] GSO: Yeah, that would be awesome. 

[0:55:34.2] EXR: Nice, good, front row. 

[0:55:36.1] GSO: Beautiful. Thanks so much, Sheryl. So, Larry asked about Drum Da Dum website. Do you have Š and Patatap. Let me just spell them out here. Can you spell it for me one more time? Or maybe Š 

[0:55:50.8] EXR: Absolutely. 

[0:55:52.4] GSO: Erik, can you type in the chat? 

[0:55:54.2] EXR: Yeah, IÕll do that right now, itÕs perfect. Here we go. IÕll do drumdadum.com, so thereÕs that one and then it will be patatap.com, is the other one. 

[0:56:07.7] GSO: Great and I think that was MelanieÕs question as well. 

[0:56:12.2] EXR: Yeah. 

[0:56:14.5] GSO: Ginger at all communications improvisation, love that. 

[0:56:20.2] EXR: So true. 

[0:56:20.6] GSO: True statement.

[0:56:21.5] EXR: Great comment. 

[0:56:23.2] GSO: Playing jazz, Miles Davis. ŅI work with very young children in early intervention, any specific ideas on using music to facilitate speech?Ó Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the first, I donÕt know if you Š do you want to take this? 

[0:56:39.0] EXR: Oh, you go for it. 

[0:56:40.5] GSO: Okay, yeah. Well, I mean, the one thing that is really common that I use is something like MIT but itÕs basically like using musical carrier phrases. ŅI see thisÓ something like that, you know, ŅI want milk.Ó And what that does, I think it does a few different things. One is that music helps you to naturally extend, naturally, give a good model, and for the child to be able to hear all of the sounds and imitate it more easily. 

You know, if you say like, ŅI wantÓ you know, you sound like Dory from Finding Nemo talking to the whale. You know, it doesnÕt sound natural but if youÕre to sing it, you can stretch these phrases out naturally and so it allows you to imitate as a child learning to imitate and use language. ItÕs easier and then also I think itÕs just more, you know, music being so engaging. ItÕs just something that they naturally start to do. 

[0:57:52.1] EXR: That sounds like a really great idea, so functional, and an idea that most children will kind of go in for that. It doesnÕt feel like itÕs forced, it feels so natural. So, you as the model can showcase some of that melodic type way of doing the phrase and hopefully, that child, you know, follows suit. 

[0:58:13.7] GSO: Absolutely. IÕm just going to put these Š oops, I realized that the websites, I think theyÕre just sent to the panelist. So, let me see if I can put it in here. 

[0:58:26.5] EXR: Oh, my mistake. 

[0:58:27.8] GSO: No problem, and thereÕs the second one. 

[0:58:32.7] EXR: Yep, to everyone it says now good. 

[0:58:34.8] GSO: Okay, fantastic.

[0:58:38.0] EXR: And IÕm happy Sheryl says she looked at both of those websites and she said they are pretty cool. So, loving that. Thank you, Sheryl. 

[0:58:46.0] GSO: Right on, and Joni says that she starts the sessions with singing, with the singing toy with the words of the song on a poster board, cool. 

[0:58:56.5] EXR: Oh, yeah. 

[0:58:57.3] GSO: And then we learn the words of the song and sing it with the singing animal, it warms up the session from the beginning. 

[0:59:01.9] EXR: ThatÕs perfect. 

[0:59:02.8] GSO: Great. 

[0:59:03.1] EXR: You know, that consistency for those children, IÕm sure they really look forward to that and it starts to really get them in the right frame of mind. I used to do similar things early when I used to work a lot with preschoolers. We used to go, ŅOpen, shut them, open, shut them, do a little clap. Open, shut them, open, shut them, put them in your lap.Ó You know, itÕs like ah, I love it. That was a good song, I havenÕt sung that in a while. 

[0:59:28.1] GSO: ItÕs a banger. 

[0:59:30.1] EXR: It sure is. 

[0:59:31.2] GSO: Yeah. So, I was thinking of you know, also when you mention the animal, in beatboxing practice I like to do a lot of beatboxing for my clients. Sometimes weÕll do like a little Š this thing called beatboxing orchestra and weÕll have little stuffed animals and they each have a sound associated with them and you can Š 

[0:59:51.9] EXR: ThatÕs awesome. 

[0:59:53.1] GSO: Have them make the sound or even make the, you now, whatever animal it is, like a bear, ŅRoar.Ó Whatever you can make the animal sounds. 

[1:00:00.3] EXR: Yes, oh, thatÕs the best. 

[1:00:02.3] GSO: Oh cool, Claudia is saying that FergieÕs mom is an SLP. I had no idea. 

[1:00:09.3] EXR: Oh, I didnÕt know either. ThatÕs whatÕs up, Black Eyed Peas, thatÕs whatÕs up. 

[1:00:14.3] GSO: Yeah. 

[1:00:14.6] EXR: I got to look that up, thatÕs cool. 

[1:00:16.7] GSO: SLP facts, SLP music facts. ThatÕs so funny. Well, we have a couple of minutes left and I just want to say thank you again to all of you for coming. Thanks to you Erik, itÕs been lovely talking to you as always, and yeah, thank you again, man. YouÕre a legend. 

[1:00:42.3] EXR: Dude, it takes one to know one, man. ItÕs always great connecting. 

[1:00:46.2] GSO: Anything that you want to leave us with? 

[1:00:46.9] EXR: Keep the song in your heart and keep on doing the great work that youÕre all doing. YouÕre fantastic SLPs and you are planting all the right seeds. 

[1:00:55.5] GSO: Thank you so much to all of you. Thank you, Erik. Everyone, take care, and weÕll see you again next week. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

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SLPL S13 E100Transcript



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