SLP Learning S13E4
Announcer: [00:00:00] Welcome to SLP Learning Series, a podcast series presented by SpeechTherapyPD.com. The SLP Learning Series explores various topics of speech language pathology. Each season dives deeper into a topic with a different host and guests who are leaders in the field. Some topics include stuttering, AAC, sports concussion, Teletherapy ethics and more.
Announcer: Each episode has an accompanying audio course on speech therapy pd.com and is available for 0.1 ASHA CEUs now come along with us as we look closer into the many topics of speech language pathology.
Garrett: Hi everyone. My name is Garrett Scooter Oyama. I'm back with another mini podcast series with SpeechTherapyPD.com.  this one is called Tunes for Talk Music as a Tool for Language Intervention. And today is the fourth installment. Um, and it's called Development Through Musical Narrative: A Melodic Journey Through Music, Speech, and Storytelling with a board certified music therapist.
 Garrett: I mentioned before that I'm an SLP and a musician. So it's my pleasure to talk about how music, speech, and language are intimately related and how music is a practical tool for therapy in a bunch of different ways. So before we get started, just a few items to alert you to, this course is one hour and will be offered for 0.1 ASHA CEUs.
Garrett: [00:02:00] as far as financial disclosures go, we each receive an honorarium from SpeechTherapyPD.com. And, uh, Isabelle Engler is also the founder of Music and Tales, um, and author of the Learning Songs with Colors Book Series and Here and Now. So, um, we may be discussing those later and there are no non-financial disclosures to discuss, and I'm so excited to welcome the incredible.
Garrett: Isabelle Engler, who is a board-certified music therapist and children's author. She's experienced in working with hospitalized children and caregivers, children with autism spectrum disorder, adults with neurological impairments, and she desires to use music to serve children and families. Um, her singable books include Lunar New Year, Here now and the fishing song, and they're really awesome.
Garrett: Uh, the, the visuals and the songs and, um, and everything are really fantastic. So recommend those. And she lives now in South Lake, Texas with her husband and two daughters. You could find her at, um, at music and tales or visit, uh, www.isabelleengler.com. Um, so just a little bit of connective tissue is that Isabel and I actually studied Music performance together at UCSD.
Garrett: [00:03:00] So, um, we somehow, uh, we, we stopped, we just hadn't heard from each other in a long time. And then I saw her on, uh, social media and just saw that our paths kind of converged in this way where we both did music and then suddenly got involved in therapy as well. So it's really cool to, you know, To kind of reconnect.
Garrett: So yeah. How are you doing Isabelle? 
Isabelle: I'm good. Thank you so much for the wonderful intro. Um, Garrett. Um, like you said, it was so nice to reconnect after all these years after college and realizing that both of us have become therapists and working with people. 
Garrett: Yeah, absolutely. You know, maybe you could tell us a little bit more because I'm curious to, I want to know kind of what's your work.
Garrett: Both your origin story as it relates to, uh, you know, music therapy, but also music in general. How did, were you always interested in it or how did you get started? 
Isabelle: [00:04:00] That's a great question. I'll try to keep it concise. So, um, as you know, like our college did not have a music therapy degree, right? So I studied this traditional route of music performance and that's just what I knew.
Isabelle: Like, you know, study performance, get better at my craft and, you know, My, my goal at the time was like, well, I really wanted to do more with music after undergrad. So I continued to study privately with a professor at San Francisco conservatory of music in San Francisco. And I never heard about music therapy in California.
Isabelle: I was living in California. And so, and so I was working during the day and at night I would have like rehearsals and collaboration, like projects. For music as a pianist, because that's my primary instrument. Right. And so, you know, years would go by and I would live this like double life where I wanted to do more than performing like there's nothing wrong with performing.
Isabelle: I still, you know, love working with performers. I still enjoy playing. Right. There was just something about, like, wanting to use music to work with people, but I didn't know what that was until I actually reconnect with, um, a former college classmate of ours. I don't know if you remember her. She was a violinist, and she had a very successful private studio teaching violin, but she told me she was, like, going back to school to study music therapy for a second degree, and so that was, like, 10 years out of that, and that's how I discovered music therapy.
Isabelle: [00:05:00] So did you have another question? 
Garrett: No, that's awesome. Yeah, I didn't know that. Who was it by? I don't know if you want to mention 
Isabelle: she was called yes. So, 
Garrett: okay. Got it. Yeah. I don't remember her, um, specifically, but that's so cool. You know, one thing that strikes me and that has struck me also from talking to all these different people on this podcast so far is how you can really make an interesting career.
Garrett: Through kind of the intersections of your interests, because I was sort of in the same boat in that like I knew. I mean, obviously, since I was a little kid, music has always been, you know, my passion and playing guitar specifically. But I didn't know, going to college. It was like, okay, there's a clear, it's, you could be a musician.
Garrett: [00:06:00] That's, you know, the job that's put in front of you. But, um, , I had all these other interests and I knew that I loved, , studying the brain. Um, like we talked about, we both studied cognitive science as well. And, I liked, uh, you know, looking into research and, you know, science and all this stuff too.
Garrett: So, um, it's really cool. And, you know, always was interested in speech and language. And so having. You know, having these interests led me to this, this other career. And it seems like, you know, you having sort of the background as well, wanting to help people wanting to see this, like other side of music also sort of led you to this career.
Isabelle: Absolutely. I think that the moment was when that friend of mine mentioned that she was really drawn to music therapy because she wanted to use music to help with, um, people struggling with eating disorders, which she had told me She experienced, um, in, in youth too, so I was like, wait, you know, how does, , music help, you know, people struggling with eating disorders and in psychiatric hospitals.
Isabelle: [00:07:00] So that like piqued my interest. I started diving into research and, and literature about is this a real thing? You know, I guess what's the science behind it and found out that there's so much I didn't know. So I was just like, I think I got to do this. And I remember telling my husband, like, I think I need to go back to school.
Isabelle: And then he's like, if you feel called for this, then go for it. I think it's great. So kind of let me down the rabbit hole of going back to get a degree and then learn about the psychology and science. And we learned a lot about like abnormal psychology and how it's not just in psychiatric hospital, but also working with kids, um, on the spectrum or, you know, children or adults, um, going through illnesses and how to cope with those illnesses.
Isabelle: And. There's just so many ways that music can help with cognitive, social, communication, emotional, and physical goals as well. So that was just some like, , angelic moment of I can actually use music to, , do to help people. 
Garrett: I love that. Yeah. You know, , thinking it's just always amazes me how powerful music is and how it can really, um, kind of work.
Garrett: [00:08:00] In all these different ways to help a person's life. And I wonder how, uh, basically, , why, uh, you, you sort of made the, , switch from music therapy, uh, to doing, you know, being an author of, , children's books and a business owner and things like that. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Isabelle: Yes, thank you for calling that out. So besides, yeah, the clinical music therapy work, right? Like I, I started having this idea of creating resources for children. And I have a story about that too, because at the time I was working at a children's hospital and specifically I work a lot with kids who.
Isabelle: We're waiting for heart transplants. So they have heart diseases or defects. And so they were hospitalized for months at the time, waiting for a heart. Right. And then I also worked in oncology. So kids going through cancer treatment and they were as young as four years old. Right. So I remember working with a young patient and I won't disclose any like identifiable information of course, but, um, at the time she, I think her family was from, uh, Um, a different country that they only spoke Mandarin Chinese.
Isabelle: [00:09:00] And so it was really difficult for them to communicate to any staff. And even, you know, in medical settings, they have these, like, translation, um, devices. But, sometimes things are lost in translation, right? And so, um, This child was referred to me because she actually, , had selective mutism. She was, you know, she stopped talking to her family, talking, stopped talking and responding verbally to, any of the staff members.
Isabelle: So, um, we're just trying to figure out how we could help her. And so I, at the time, you know, I was practicing in English. Honestly, like I grew up in the States too, right? So, , my, my family was from Taiwan. So I do speak Mandarin and, and bilingual in. Mandarin and English. So I like pull from the back of my mind trying to remember some like Mandarin nursery rhymes that's age appropriate for four years olds.
Isabelle: [00:10:00] And so I just remember her like eyes lit up and her personality despite going through this really traumatizing like Bone marrow, transplant treatment, um, which led to her like, you know, stop talking to everybody like she came back alive like her personality came back and she was, you know, engaging with us and she was, um, starting to share about things that she was excited about by pointing and then trying to talk to me in Mandarin.
Isabelle: So that was just a very special moment to see. Wow, like, I always knew right in as a music therapist, we use client preferred music. So we don't come in with , Oh, here's what you're going to listen to right now. We try to really like understand and learn from the client's preference, and they use that to engage as a gateway to to start the therapy session.
Isabelle: And so seeing the effect of how Like, the native tongue, like the language that's in her native tongue and the music in that really opened that up and we were able to build report really quickly. And we continue to have sessions that try to address her cognitive goals because she was like, missing out all the schoolwork.
Isabelle: [00:11:00] Right? And she, she was just impossible for this indefinite amount of time. And also for social for communication and also just emotional as well. Um, all these goals are about to create positive coping. So I was looking around like, okay, I wonder what else can, can I find as resources to see her on a weekly basis?
Isabelle: And I was having trouble finding like materials written in Mandarin or Chinese. So I was creating a lot of these things just like, you know, from Canva, from like Word documents and Google, lots of Google slides and stuff like that. And then as a mom of two, I was also Committed to teach my kids music and Mandarin.
Isabelle: So these were two big goals of mine. So I was, you know, in these two parallel lives, I was struggling to find like books and, you know, visual aids in Chinese. So I was just like, okay, I'm just going to create some. And so that was actually one inspiration that let me down. Um, the road of like, you know what, I think I'm just gonna start writing because I was already doing these things, you know, pieces by pieces.
Isabelle: [00:12:00] And so I started thinking about like, okay, what kind of things what I want to do. And I definitely wanted to incorporate music. So that started the learning songs with color series where, um. I'm reading that I basically rewrite songs that was in Chinese or Mandarin into English songs, but I keep it bilingual.
Isabelle: So there's both languages in it. And I work with artists to create emotive illustrations that retell the story. For example, the song, the song, the fishing song, I think, you know, at my age, well, it's a little blurred out, but you can see this. Okay, there's a little girl out to the sea for adventures. Um, , it's a little blurry.
Isabelle: Why is it talking my face more? All right, it's it's out to the sea to um, for adventure. And I think, the theme is to overcome impossible challenges, basically. Right. To have courage. And so, I I wanted to really convey through the storytelling aspects of picture books. Um, each, each spread is, it has very, , complicated illustration that, um, but, and then with a Singapore line and so through the stories and, and the actual, like, illustration.
Isabelle: The caregiver or, you know, the parents or the teacher can really prompt discussions between them and also the child reading the book. Um, and it's more than just like singing a song, but it serves as a visual aid, but also serves as a discussion point. And also, um, also to talk about how, like, how, like, what, what is this girl feeling right now?
Isabelle: And, you know, how do you think that she feels afterward? And then at the end we have the color coded Scores that can allow any kids to follow the colors and be able to play the song right away too on the xylophone, on a toy piano or, or, um, keyboard or, you know, boom whackers as well too. So just to create more.
Isabelle: And accessibility to music and languages. 
Garrett: [00:14:00] I love that. There's so much in there. And for anyone interested, we'll, we'll provide a link, um, to all the books. But yeah, there's a million things I want to talk about in there, but, , definitely, you know, thank you for sharing that. Client story as well. That's really moving.
Garrett: And, , one thing I keep telling people is, uh, that there's this cool research about how, playing music with somebody will make you more socially engaged with them and make you more likely to open up to them. And, you know, just one thing that's overlooked so much in, I think, well, in speech therapy specifically is rapport building and how important it is, you know.
Garrett: I, and I did this, you know, to, when I was a starting clinician, I'd go in, just, you know, have my lesson plan and just go right into, you know, whatever it was, flashcards or something like that. And there's no connection and, um, no engagement, no, you know, joint attention and things like that. And those are all foundational for learning things.
Garrett: What you attend to is what you learn. And so, um, having this, uh, having a musical activity. Is building rapport. It's making you, more likely to be pro social. There's a research study that I mentioned, um, before in the, in the last, podcast, but they had, they had like people go in and either tap on time with the.
Garrett: Uh, the facilitator or, um, tap like out of time with them and the people that tapped on time with the facilitator, like we're making music together with them, we're more likely to help them, uh, pick up a pencil that they had dropped. And so I just thought that was so funny, but there's all this other research too, about how when you make music, you know, you're releasing all of these pro social neurotransmitters.
Garrett: Um, oxytocin, dopamine, things like that, um, to, to really make things engaging and fun and, and more likely to, you know, really connect with somebody. So that's so cool that it can, you know, even for a kid struggling with selective mutism going through, you know, You know, some really, really tough times that music really open some doors.
Garrett: So, 
Isabelle: yeah, they're 
Garrett: just testament to how powerful it is. 
Isabelle: [00:16:00] Absolutely. Like, I mean, that cancer treatment, like, you know, unit is just one example, right? Like, you know, we, we have been consulted to kids who experienced traumatic brain injury and who are trying to rehab, right. And also, you know, grabbing a drumstick to tap on beat exactly what you're saying, right?
Isabelle: Like that is a movement, but then music can motivate them to actually work on that. Um, and then also just like, I think that I have some colleagues who work with stroke patients as well to write to sort of regain skills they once had. So there's just so many powerful ways because I think music in our brain, like the neural pathways is all over the place, like across multiple domains.
Isabelle: And I think, um, Research had only come out in the 90s because, you know, the brain scanning technologies to discover how that is mapping our brain and how the effect of it. So it's still fascinating to me. Like, every day, you know, sometimes I hear different client testimonials and I'm really amazed by it as well, too.
Garrett: [00:17:00] And I love that you brought into, uh, the, the bilingual piece, like that's two of my passions, you know, learn language learning and music. So that's really cool. I forget the quote, but you know, it's like some, something like when you speak in someone's home language, you speak to their heart or something like that.
Garrett: Um, and, uh, and I really feel like there's also some cool research. That's overlapping with music that, um, people that are, uh, kids that are bilingual and then also that do music, there's something, you know, um, special about how the brain processes sound. So they're more adept at reading and. And language and um, you know, it's all overlapping and I don't know if you've ever heard of the, the opera hypothesis, but I talked about this with the other music therapists that we, that we had on here.
Garrett: But it's, it's basically like just a, um, a way to talk about the reasons, the theoretical reasons why music would be helpful for. Um, speech and language processing as well. Um, so, so there's, there's a rich literature now about how, um, you know, there's overlapping brain areas. Like you were talking about when you're listening to music, you have to process sound at a more precise level.
Garrett: So that's the P in opera emotion. Something you're bringing up here is that, you know, music really releases these. Chemicals that, you know, are tied to different emotions. So it's motivating. And so that's, uh, that's the E and then, um, R is repetition. You get a lot of repetitions, you know, whether it's tapping a drumstick, like you're saying, or when you're beatboxing, you're saying phonemes over and over again.
Garrett: Um, and then, and then that affects attention as well. When you really are motivated to do something and when it's emotionally salient to you. You want to attend to it. So, um, those are all reasons why, you know, music is, is a really helpful tool and also helps with speech language. 
Isabelle: [00:19:00] Yes. And like, I'm just thinking back on like the time when I used to work in a NICU, lots of babies, right?
Isabelle: Like babies don't speak English right away to you, but they're listening, they're learning. I think music has this powerful way of like, um, engaging with the babies, but also they, they start, they learn to vocalize first before they speak, right? Any, any children. And so music, you can actually like demonstrate that to them and you know, you can watch their social cues, even as young as a premature baby, um, that is at a gestational, like age appropriate time to, for auditory like stimulation.
Isabelle: But I remember seeing And also collaborating with other speech therapists who are part of the neurodevelopmental team, and we were sort of coordinating like, okay, this, this kid, you know, like, they're working on feeding, but then maybe I would come along to, to, like, co treat with the speech therapy, individual treatment sessions with the babies just separately, right?
Isabelle: Like, work on different goals as well to, it was just, you know, really amazing to see the responses from baby as young as, you know, Pony a, you know, gestational. 
Garrett: Yeah, that's so crazy. Um, yeah. Can you do you have any specific stories that standing out that stand out to you working with an SLP specifically any collaborations that that stuck out in your mind 
Isabelle: or sure, um, at Children's Hospital because the kids I work with were a little bit older, like maybe elementary school ages.
Isabelle: So if they were, um, if I had collaborations with speech therapists, it was usually after a major surgery where they had to relearn swallowing skills and. So feeding, right, but then, um, I think there were a few long term hospitalized kids like in transplants units where we just wanted to provide more developmental, um, support to the kids together.
Isabelle: So I remember there was one kid who was, I want to say. One, one and a half, right? And so she was just there for like, a year waiting for her heart. And so, um, speech therapists, OT and me, we actually like decided as a team, like, hey, let's just do this weekly coaching session together to visit a kid together.
Isabelle: And so we were kind of, okay, what are some goals that we're working on? What, you know, that are overlapping. And so, um. We would support each other. So we, for example, I would bring like small instruments where like a one year old can grab onto like maracas and egg shakers and tiny little keyboard that can be portable.
Isabelle: And the speech therapist is working on like language, right? So, um, she might kind of like talk to me in advance about some songs that she, that will, you know, that she can work with. And so I would accompany her, but also like, Helping the kids to engage with some instruments while allowing the speech therapist to be kind of the primary language, you know, um, to conduct the language intervention and then sometimes he was stepping as well to to do certain movements.
Isabelle: So, that I would also, like, kind of work with them. So we try not to overstep each other. We also understand, right? Like, there's different scope of work as well, too, but I actually really loved it when we were able to collaborate together. 
Garrett: [00:22:00] Yeah, I really think there needs to be more, um, interprofessional collaboration between our fields and maybe for just the people, um, listening, if there is anyone who doesn't know technically what a music therapist is, maybe, um, can you just give people a quick definition?
Garrett: What is, what is a music therapist? Um, 
Isabelle: My one line elevator pitch, excuse me, is that, um, I, I love using like, you know, music therapy is to use music to address like non musical goals through, um, through using the use intentional use of music, although it can also address musical goals as well. And so to pull in a quote by Kenneth Bruscia, who is a pioneer in music therapy.
Isabelle: Um, the definition, this is one of my favorites. Um, it's I'll call him a reflexive process of intervention, wherein the therapist helps the client to optimize the client's health using various facets of music experience and the relationships formed through them as an impetus for change. 
Garrett: [00:23:00] That's a, yeah, that feels like philosophical.
Garrett: I'll have to 
Isabelle: think about 
Garrett: that for a while. I'll just sit on 
Isabelle: that. It can be various music experiences, but for us it's to optimize, like, the health. That's therapeutic relationship formed to move towards the change, right? And so the change can be like, the define, you know, the identified goal domains, like, emotional sensorial motor, um, social cognitive communication.
Isabelle: Um, and also we have, like, a therapeutic products, therapeutic process as well, to from referral to assessment to treatment, planning intervention, and then evaluation, um, in some sense. That's ongoing. Right. But, you know, if somebody is working in private practice, working with kids on the spectrum, then that might look different.
Isabelle: That's very different from, like, being in a hospital. So, in different population and settings, the goals might look different and you also have to see what the client base looks like to. 
Garrett: [00:24:00] Absolutely. Yeah, it was. So I guess just like you're saying in the schools that speak, uh, the music therapists that I work with that were working across all of the IEP goals.
Garrett: So all the IEP goal domains, but they're using music as the tool to work on those things. 
Speaker 4: I guess 
Garrett: maybe something like a, like a masseuse would use massage to help you with all You know, physical ailments that you might have, whereas in SLP speech therapist, we'll have the section of goals that are specific to speech and language versus we're not using what we are kind of, but we're not specifically using speech and language as the tool where that's, it's more of the goal focus, I guess that's the difference, um, is, is, uh, how does, how does someone qualify by the way, for, for music therapy?
Garrett: [00:25:00] So you're mentioning, uh, an evaluation process. 
Isabelle: Yeah, so, so for the hospital setting, we, you know, we, we kind of, we, we work on the psychosocial, like, we're in the psychosocial support role right in the hospital. And I'll speak about non hospital as well after this. And so, a referral can come from like a physician from a nurse can be a chaplain and can from can come from like a PT or OT or even speech therapist.
Isabelle: Um, At Children's Hospital, some nurses are great. They're like, Hey, this kid is about to be here for a long time. I just know that they can use it for where this baby like the parents are not able to be at the hospital to be with the baby very much. So this could be a great referral. And then, you know, in working with adults, right, because I work with children, but I have colleagues who are adults, too.
Isabelle: So it could be somebody who had a stroke and is trying to recover from stroke, but hospitalized. So, um, the music therapist could be consulted because a nurse or physicians. Um, decided that, hey, this could be a good fit, um, to refer, um, them to music therapy. Um, I have some friends who work in hospice or, um, assisted nursing homes working with elders.
Isabelle: [00:26:00] And so they, they may do the referral process differently. Um, for example, like you mentioned about in school districts, right? Like, I think music therapists working in school districts, they will work with those, um, all of the stakeholders on the IEP. Plan, and I think that referral process might look different.
Isabelle: And I haven't worked with school districts before, so I'm not a super expert on that. But in the medical setting, there's a lot of conversations going. And for me, because I also worked in NICU for a while. And so it's like, well, all of these babies can benefit from developmental like goals through music, right?
Isabelle: So how do we prioritize? It was actually very difficult, but I had some criteria where like, okay, they have to be at least 28 weeks gestational age old, because before then, you know, they're too young, their auditory system and neurological system is not mature enough to be stimulated. Like, more than they should be like, they're usually right.
Isabelle: [00:27:00] And so and also by 32 weeks, gestational age, that's when a little bit like, I know that was kind of threshold roughly, but I still assess right to make sure that they can tolerate that. Um, but then I might, like, incorporate, like, touch, um, to, to help them move a little bit while singing to them. Um, and then I might also, like, work with parents.
Isabelle: So, for example, like, if the 2 babies have similar criteria, same diagnosis and same ages, but 1's parent is not able to be with them during the day, during the week, they can only come at night and weekends. So maybe that is one I might prioritize to support more. I don't like to use the word prioritize, but sometimes you have to kind of gauge, gauge, right?
Isabelle: Like these parents are there every day, all day. So there's adequate parental support and parents are reading to the babies or seeing to the baby. So I might support the parents, right? But then maybe I see them once a week, but then the other one, I might try to go see like two to three times a week.
Garrett: [00:28:00] Right. And for all the SLPs out there listening to, um, you know, even if the child doesn't qualify for music therapy, it doesn't mean that you can't use music as a, as an activity, you know, music is, is a universal, it's universal, right. I think, you know, um, and so I think, It's also maybe I'm biased, but I think it's one of the best things you could do for your brain is to, is to listen to music in an intentional way.
Garrett: And, um, and it's just joyful as well. Not, I know not everyone is. And I, there were probably some, um, I was hearing the other day about kind of the normal distribution for people, uh, you know, uh, as far as music goes. And there's obviously the really gifted, you know, there's the Jacob Colliers of the world, and then there's the people that are totally a music.
Garrett: [00:29:00] So they can't hear tone and pitch and don't respond to rhythm. But, um, you know, I think for most of the population, we can really benefit from, from music's, uh, distribution. Um, but great. Thank you for sharing. And I really feel like, you know, I've, I've worked just recently, recently with the music therapist and it was so cool, um, to have, it was, it was really exciting to see someone who was, uh, when, when she started singing, like the child I was working with, just a huge smile on her face and they actually put together a.
Garrett: Kind of like a performance for her. Um, so they're like, okay, so every, every month we're going to do like a recital for you and just having that, that thing to work towards, um, just what made, made such a huge difference. So it's really great to have a therapist there who has training and, um, is. And can kind of create these settings.
Isabelle: [00:30:00] Yes, like they can have something that the child really excited about and support and facilitate that right as a project to look forward to and to work towards versus like in other settings, like a different child might feel like, Oh, that's too much pressure. I don't necessarily work on it. But then like a trained therapist is able to kind of assess where the child is at and work with that.
Garrett: Absolutely. Are there any, uh, before we get to, before we start talking about sort of the narrative stuff that you mentioned before, are there any sort of practical, uh, musical tools that you like to use 
Isabelle: in 
Garrett: therapy and something that maybe an SLP can use? 
Isabelle: [00:31:00] I see, I see, um, for top, I would say, like, a large categories, right, would be like, you know, we do, like, listening, so receptive, like you, how you, you, you support, like, a client to listen to music, and then we use that as a gateway to prompt discussions afterwards, such as, like, lyric analysis, um, But also there's active music making, right?
Isabelle: So that's like instrument play. And the third one is improvisation. And the fourth one is composition. My favorite one is improvisation. I think that comes from like having played jazz, right? Like I think that sometimes we joke that like improvisation is such a bread and butter, like for a music therapist, because We are trained to have this skill to be able to improvise and make it accessible to clients who may not have had like musical trainings, right?
Isabelle: And so, um, Gary, I know you're like a very, very talented guitar player. And I remember like, just like admiring your improvisation in college, but most of the kids like that level year, right? So how do we like create that? overall structure, um, in chord progressions, but allowing them to kind of try it out, right?
Isabelle: Like plucking some notes on the keyboard along with like a guitar accompaniment or vice versa, like on the piano, but then they're trying to play like certain keys on the different instruments. And so I really enjoy as a pianist to kind of offer them piano, like a keyboard in front of them. Sometimes for a child, It's this large instrument where long, long instrument with so many options on it.
Isabelle: It can be a little intimidating, but I might start with like, Hey, just pick the black keys and that's pentatonic, right? Like you can easily accompany them in a core progression and then they can play any pentatonic. Or maybe just white keys, but then I set the structure of the groups, the rhythm and the tempo, um, and dynamics as well, too, in a set chord progression.
Isabelle: So that way, it kind of sounds like a, like a composition, but, um, but the kid, the kid also has to creatively and freedom to create, um, chords. And to self express as well, too. So I would say conversations are, are my top two favorites. 
Garrett: I love that. Well, you know, thinking about even what we're doing right now, right.
Garrett: [00:33:00] Where like this, we don't have a script really for this thing. It's like, we're, we're having this conversation. It's totally improvised and how amazing, you know, we're using sound to, um, you know, explore ideas. And, and, you know, come up with hopefully make meaningful statements that will help people. Um, but it's, it's really kind of similar thing to speech and language.
Garrett: And I think that practicing improvisation in a musical settings is also helpful because if you think about, you know, like you're talking about providing the harmonic context so that a child is. Um, can easily start to improvise and feel comfortable and get used to that skill. Well, we do the same thing when we scaffold language as You know, parents or as teachers, like when a kid is young, right, they don't have the facility and the, the, um, facility with language, let's say to really carry a conversation on their own.
Garrett: Like if you, if I was a five year old right now, I might not be asking the same question. It might just jump around or, you know, uh, I might ask you about like pineapple pizza or something like that. But, um, you know, as, when we're working with them as, you know, When they're younger, we're like, okay, here's the structure.
Garrett: [00:34:00] Let's we'll, we'll kind of ask you the questions. We'll bring you back when, when you need to. Um, and, and they can kind of play around and then their, their language abilities grow until we're at this place now where we can freely have conversation. And we're, you know, I think everyone. Who, who speaks and have conversations.
Garrett: They're like, really like, you know, Herbie Hancock level jazz musicians in the language domain, you know? So I think that's, yeah, so interesting. Um, I love that. I haven't actually done a ton of improv with my kids, and that's something I'm gonna start to do, so. Yeah. 
Isabelle: Yeah, exactly. Like, like you said, right?
Isabelle: We're having a conversation right now in, in music. There's musical. Dialogue dialogues as well, too. And I, like, for examples, for those online right now, it's like you can match each like a therapist can match the energy of like the child who, who may not consciously or may not know that they're doing that consciously if they're feeling angry.
Isabelle: Right. But then the way, that's like 
Garrett: [00:35:00] ISO principle, right? Sorry to jump in. 
Isabelle: Exactly. 
Garrett: Yeah. 
Isabelle: Their energy and their rhythm. And then you can, you can tone up or tone down depending on what your goal is as well, too. 
Garrett: Absolutely. So for, for everyone listening, I learned this from a music therapist actually, um, that the ISO principle is, um, so we know that music can change your state.
Garrett: Music can change your emotional state. That's a, you know, something that's been shown in literature for a long time. And so what you want to do is if someone is feeling very frustrated, um, let's say one of your clients is, Maybe having a meltdown or something like that, you can start with, instead of going straight into a happy, joyful, peaceful song, you know, you might want to start out where they are.
Garrett: So you might want to play some rage against the machine or something like that, something a little bit more aggressive and, um, That, that matches their emotional state. And then you could sort of. Spring them down, if I'm understanding it correctly. Is that, is that sort of 
Isabelle: right? Yeah. No, I love that you're so well versed in this.
Isabelle: [00:36:00] And I'll throw in another example as well too. So for example, like, you know, in a pa, patient in a hospital setting where they might be really AGI agitated and their heart rate is like shooting up the roof, right? Like monitors is beeping. And so, um. Go in and then you may not want to, like, just start with, like, you know, happy, but then you might want to the rhythm, like the tempo of that heart rate.
Isabelle: That's how you can match the ISO principle. And then you slow it down. And then once you match it and engage with the client, and I was, I might like, slow it down and then start removing the layers. of the instrumentation, like instead of strumming, I might kind of like transition to finger picking on the guitar.
Isabelle: That I've seen time after time, like the heart rate starts slowing down as the music slows down as well too. It's amazing. And then they start breathing better. Um, their respiration, like Ray is better as well too. Um, and they're able to sort of like compose themselves as well too. 
Garrett: [00:37:00] Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, a lot of things like the breath, um, is.
Garrett: It's so important for changing your physiology as well. And so that might be a reason why music, you know, it sort of influences your breathing, so can influence your physiology that way. And I think your brain waves also, right. They start to synchronize with the music. Um, and so certain rhythms and frequencies and, and harmonies will differentially affect how your brain is processing things.
Garrett: So I think it will, like, it can kind of change your state in a way that It's not, uh, sometimes it's, it's tough to like reason with somebody in that state, you know, like they call it amygdala hijack, right? Where you're just in this sort of like emotional state, you can't really process things. Your prefrontal cortex is shut down.
Garrett: And so you're not willing to, um, reason with somebody. So you just start arguing so that, like, but when you go from the other way, when you go from the, you know, Physiological side of things. Let's say, um, you can kind of sort of go, go through the back door in a sense and, and help someone calm down. Yeah.
Garrett: [00:38:00] That's such a beautiful, uh, method. Yeah. Very practical tool too. So yes, I'll just can use. 
Isabelle: Yeah. Think, think about like practical tools. Like, I think I love what you said about, like, sometimes like right in that beginning moment, maybe like trying to say something verbally may not be the first way to engage because of the state.
Isabelle: Like using music as a backdoor. Like, I love the way you use that word because we use that word in the medical setting a lot. Like we're, we're sometimes joking among like the care team that like music therapists kind of have to backdoor to, to kind of connect with the client. And so really sometimes like what's, what may not be as effective in words, like music can go there more efficiently and then you can have, you know, your intervention, your plan agenda and stuff like that after that too.
Garrett: [00:39:00] Yeah, and sometimes, you know, it does make words more powerful. Like you were, um, uh, and this is sort of a transition into, uh, your, uh, narratives in your storytelling and your, and your books. Um, but you know, from your perspective, uh, how do you think that Narrative and music and speech relate. 
Isabelle: Yes. And so, yeah, that's a great question.
Isabelle: So for me, at least in the clientele that I've worked with that young children, like three to eight, where, you know, they, they have such a development right within that age range in terms of like language development. And so like, even if they only speak one language, like, let's say English, right, like they go from maybe a few words.
Isabelle: Vocalizing something like, you know, um, to like speaking sentences, writing right. Reading and all that. So there's, there's just a huge range in that and I think that, um, there's a reason why so many preschools or nursery schools will use songs to kind of like sing about hello, you know, singing about, you know, good morning, seeing about the days of the week, um, the, the months in the year, because I think that like, kids will remember that very, like much more easily than if you just.
Isabelle: teach them, you know, speaking form. And so I, I do think that the memory retention, um, it's, it's, it helps a lot when there's music involved and singing and, you know, and singing is a great way to encourage, um, the kids to mimic as well too. Um, so for example, like I've, I've seen this, you know, with the bilingual books that I've created, but also just like in working with kids, right.
Isabelle: Even without a booking hand, like. let's say English is a client's primary language or dominant language, but they're also learning like Mandarin, for example, um, the pronunciation, like being able to sing through something in Mandarin, it, it comes quicker when they're learning it through music versus if you just like speak to them in one line and then they, they, they don't necessarily remember how to say it, but somehow in a song form, like I've seen kids just like memorize a song and start singing Mandarin versus like they may not speak.
Isabelle: [00:41:00] That in a sentence, um, otherwise, so I, I think it's, it's just amazing to me every time I see that. 
Garrett: Yeah. And I think that's reflected in the research as well. Like, and, and also, you know, just historically culturally, like these have always been things stories in and song have always been used together. And I think one of the mechanisms.
Garrett: I'm not sure this isn't, um, this is sort of speculative, but, you know, when you're singing something, you're able to stretch out the sounds in a natural way. Like, you know, you're not going to say something like, I went to, you know, you're, if you, if you're singing something, you can stretch syllables, words, sounds out, um, in a natural way.
Garrett: And so kids are, um, they're encoding that more easily, I think.
Garrett: [00:42:00] Because they're getting, you know, getting more time to process it. And I think having that, um, also just the fact that music is more engaging. is another reason why they're processing it at a different level. Yeah. 
Isabelle: I remember, um, one of my practicum settings was in a private practice and their specialization was working with kids, um, with autism spectrum disorder.
Isabelle: And so some kids came in with nonverbal communication, like they, they have other ways to communicate, right. But then they, it's nonverbal. So I remember some of the kids might have the goals of like, try to vocalize, like, you know, just to be able to say a, a, You know, a sound like a vowel, right? So I remember there was one client, um, he was already in the teens, but my supervisor would work with him to just really make the sound of me like, so he, she would like prepare and plan the sessions with songs that have these sounds.
Isabelle: [00:43:00] And then, so they would have these musical dialogues and trying to prompt him and see how many times, you know, um, Did he make it like three out of four times or, you know, they'll, they'll kind of take the measurements on whether or not he's able to make improvements. And he did over time, but, but of course it's not overnight, right?
Isabelle: Like that was like ongoing weekly.
Garrett: Well, I like how you mentioned that it's, it's something that, uh, helps kids to mimic and, uh, you know, joint attention and, uh, imitation are the foundations of speech and language. So, you know, developing those skills, uh, whether it's through music or not it is. It's totally critical. Um, yeah. So I, I definitely, I definitely think that, and I think going back to, to narrative too, I, I really feel like Storytelling is so important.
Garrett: [00:44:00] and you know, if you're able to kind of increase the emotional valence of the story by putting it to song, and I think this is something like, you know, like ancient bards, right? Poets like Homer, uh, they all told stories like, you know, the Odyssey was like, Uh, composed and sung by a poet. You know, and the way, you know, cause they wanted, Whoa, I think there's an earthquake right now.
Garrett: Sorry. We'll keep talking. It's not a big one. So they, uh, you know, they would transmit these stories through, through sound. They would just be. You know, people memorizing these huge, long, epic tales, um, and how incredible. And so, and through that, you're transmitting, you know, this really deep cultural knowledge.
Garrett: And so, um, and I think narrative is something, uh, you know, you're, you're talking about autism. It's something that also helps you, um, perspective take and, uh, learn, you know, if you identify with the main character, You can see how different people process different characters process different things. Um, and I think, you know, Having, having that set to music only makes it more powerful.
Isabelle: Yeah, I know. I think 
Garrett: about that 
Isabelle: too. Cause like, I wanted to sort of share about some of, um, this, you know, the storytelling and having that narrative as well, too, and blur my background. So that way it doesn't like blur out. But for example, like this song, like we have this little character that the child reading it can connect and identify, right?
Isabelle: Like this character going out to the uncertainty to face, you know, challenges as well too. There's animals, there's sceneries that go with it. And, um, and then at the end you can kind of see like the emotional changes in, in the little girl's face, um, and, and the end too. Even though this is just a short demonstration, but I do think that kids engage with like characters, right?
Isabelle: And, and what's happening in a scene. They ask questions about like, oh, like what's happening here? Why is she upset here? And I think that this song in the old days, like I guess my generation when I was a kid. Like, it's not about a little girl. It's about a fisherman going out to the sea just to get fish back home.
Isabelle: [00:46:00] Like, it's not really, there's no story around there. And so, um, I kind of transformed it because I wanted to connect with kids who are the readers, right? Like, so that it's, it's kid focused in that narrative. And that way they can, um, Um, kind of see, imagine, um, through the illustrations and, and then because it's in a sun form, like, you can, it's a song that I can sing, right?
Isabelle: So that way they can really connect from the content of the lyrics to the visual, like the emotive illustrations of the story. Um, all of that helped them to. engage and also to motivate them to connect with it. And also just like the accessibility too, right? Like versus just reading a book of this, you know, the lyrics of the song or listening to it without, without any of the storytelling component of it.
Garrett: [00:47:00] Yeah, definitely. And how, what an important, great message to get across through song. Um, you know, I feel like a lot of the stuff that, uh, a lot of the blueprints for our lives were set in, you know, songs that we heard when we were a kid. Um, it certainly feels, certainly feels like that and stories, you know, that we learned as kids.
Garrett: There's a cool study to, um, pretty recent study that showed that people reading fiction showed advanced empathy and, um, you know, theory of mind, understanding of others, thoughts and emotions. Um, so I think, you know, just narrative in general, such a, you know, even apart from the musical stuff that we're talking about, apart from all the, um, speech stuff is just an important skill on its own.
Garrett: So combined with everything, it's like a really, really important thing. 
Isabelle: Yeah, that got me thinking about something because, like, the latest book that I had is about Lunar New Year. So this is like, what it looks like, right? And, you know, just from thinking about the title, Lunar New Year, like, it's a holiday celebrated across multiple, like, Asian cultures, and, you know, it's different from culture to culture or from country to country, and even people living in the same country, like, they can do it differently because the family, you know, celebrations are different too, right?
Isabelle: And so, I, I was invited to, and had the opportunity to visit elementary school, like, libraries, and then to, like, share that with kids from 
Speaker 4: school, 
Isabelle: right? But I just remember When kids who don't celebrate Lunar New Year from their families, like they've never even done it, um, I had like questions like, hey, you know, what are some ways that your parents have decorated your home or bring out, um, to celebrate any major holidays?
Isabelle: And then kids were like really engaged and they were like, oh, you know, for Christmas, we, you know, set up Christmas trees and they're probably kids like we celebrate day. We have candles around the house. And I remember after one event, a kid came up to me and she was trying to like talk to me. She was like, Hey, she was like only first grade.
Isabelle: [00:49:00] And she was like, you know, my, my dad is actually from Taiwan. And I never used to want to celebrate Lunar New Year because I didn't really understand it. But now that like, I get to kind of like, hear the discussions with people from different culture, but also hearing your book and singing through it, like understanding the meaning of it, like, cause I post a message that.
Isabelle: It's about love and connection through family traditions, rather than just like this obligatory thing that your 
Speaker 4: parents need 
Isabelle: to do. Um, we kind of explore about like building family traditions together through singing songs through activities and things that they do together. And so this girl was telling me like, I'm going to celebrate it from now on.
Isabelle: I was like, Oh, 
Garrett: that's 
Isabelle: like, you know, it's an open ended thing, but it was a really cute to see that response. 
Garrett: That's beautiful. Yeah. How important to, to breathe new life into really, um, old traditions and, and, um, important ones. You know? So that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing. And like having resources for, you know, bilingual kids, like you were mentioning is so great as well.
Garrett: [00:50:00] and yeah. Having those discussions. 
Speaker 4: That's 
Garrett: such a what a cool thing in order to go to, uh, uh, you know, you have such an effect on kids kids minds at that that age, too. And so, you know, having this. This little girl totally reconsider how she's, uh, you know, celebrating the new year, like this important tradition in her family.
Garrett: Like that's, that's such a cool story. Thank you for sharing. Um, just a few now, a couple of really important questions. So one is, uh, if you were to take five albums with you onto a desert island. 
Isabelle: Oh, 
Garrett: what, what would they be? And region, Henry, any, any genre. 
Isabelle: Okay. All right. So I really like Hiromi. So there might be a couple like place to be as well of my all time favorites.
Isabelle: [00:51:00] Um, she's a jazz pianist and composer. And so yeah, 
Garrett: incredible. Yes. Virtuoso. 
Isabelle: Yes. Place to be as one. Cause I think that's so low piano mostly, but the one she did with, um, She Korea is also awesome. 
Garrett: That came out when we were in college, didn't 
Isabelle: it? Yes, it's a while back. I do enjoy that one as well, too.
Isabelle: Personally, I listen to classical music still. I really enjoy piano quartets, so maybe Martha Argerich's Piano Quartets by Schumann. And then, so, I mean, Schumann's Piano Quintet as well. I think Martha Argerich also has it. It's also very, very beautiful, so I will take that too. And then the fifth one, oh man, this is really difficult.
Isabelle: I recently, um, I recently met this singer who is a Christian singer songwriter. His name is Phil Wickham. Um, I, I do, I like it. It's, you know, he's more modern, not contemporary Christian, so. But I've been liking his songs as well, too. So what about you? 
Garrett: [00:52:00] That's fantastic. Oh, well, I just wanted to mention, cause I've, I've asked this question to all the guests so far.
Garrett: Um, and everyone, it's crazy how different everyone's everyone's had completely different tastes in music. Um, I think the last guest was, uh, uh, nine inch nails. Radiohead, uh, something grungy. And, and then the previous guest was, uh, more popped like Disney. And, uh, and then some ambient and, um, the first guest there, they've all been awesome, um, was like pop punk and I, and like emo and I it's funny cause like, there's reliably been.
Garrett: Like at least one thing from each guest that I'm like, yes, that's a, that's awesome. Like, I would love to, uh, you know, take that one with me too. So it's hard, you know? Um, cause I, I love so much music that, um, Oh, and, and Cheryl good and says the Beatles and Barry Manilow. Nice to know. Yeah. The Beatles is classic.
Garrett: [00:53:00] I would, that's definitely in consideration. There's just too many. Um, yeah. Cause I've, you know, obviously I love. Jazz having, you know, studied it. I love, um, I went through all the phases. I, you know, went through the pop punk phase. I went through, um, uh, the classic rock phase, blues, jazz, hip hop, rock, uh, classical as well.
Garrett: I mean, I've been listening to a lot of Debussy recently. Um, the, the children's corner stuff is, is pretty fantastic. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's too hard to choose. Okay. And also do you have a go to karaoke song? 
Isabelle: [00:54:00] Oh man. Okay. So I am a mom, so I have two kids like six and four. Right. So when you mentioned Disney, I was like, Oh man, if I was to go to like an island with my kids and I definitely, like I already gave the inserts, but karaoke.
Isabelle: Um, I, I, I sing the song. I see the light from Tangled. I play that song all the time for kids. Music therapy or non music therapy sessions. I mean, kids seem to know it and it's a very beautiful melody. I like to say that one. 
Garrett: Fantastic. Well, um, I just, we have a, uh, a few minutes left and I wanted to leave it open for anyone.
Garrett: And if, if we don't, we'll just continue to keep talking for a little bit, but, um, I wanted to just ask if anyone had any questions, we'll open it up. In the Q and a, you can feel, uh, feel free to drop any questions in there and we're happy to, to do our best to try and answer them. Um, but do you have, you know, in the meantime, while people, um, are thinking, do you have any advice to maybe young music therapists or, or anyone, maybe even young musicians who are in college and not sure what they want to do, do you have any advice for them?
Isabelle: [00:55:00] Oh, I love that. Thank you for opening up that opportunity for me. So for, um, young music therapists. Um, I think, um, one thing I heard a lot from people is that, like, they felt like having to advocate for their field can be tiring sometimes. Right. And I like to share that even in other fields, right? You always have to advocate for your field and your role and what you're doing.
Isabelle: Like, this is not exclusive to music therapy being a newer field, but rather, you know, I, I used to work in tech in Silicon Valley where, um, I always have to kind of like sell the value of a product I was building, for example, right? I have to teach the sales team to know the product I build so they can sell it to clients.
Isabelle: I have to teach a marketing team so they can market it better. And I have to sell like the vision to the engineers to build it, why we're building it, because why the market needs it, right? So you're always going to have to sort of like, share that value because people don't always know it's not that they're like trying to devalue you it's just that they don't know and people are not thinking about it so um I just want to like share that as an encouragement that it's don't think of it as like oh this tiring chore but it's like how do I like share the wonderful things that music can do right like to help people 
Garrett: I love that yeah there's uh Definitely a lot of, well, not convincing, but there's, I mean, not even SLPs.
Garrett: Um, there's not a lot of people who know what a speech language pathologist does. Really? Maybe they have some idea. And so when you're working with a lot of parents too, um, in order for them to, you know, see what a difference it can make, you do have to do a bit of, um, convincing or you have to share, you know, Look at, you know, help them envision what having great speech and language and communication within the family would look like, and then helping them to Understand the importance of, of the, the homework you might give.
Garrett: [00:57:00] So totally, I can see that. And, , Cheryl said, uh, my granddaughter and I danced to the, the tangled song while she's dressed up in a Rapunzel dress. So, um, and she said, thank you. So thank you, Cheryl. 
Isabelle: Thank you, sir. Appreciate 
Garrett: it. Yeah. Um, we have a couple more minutes and I just wanted to ask maybe in, if you see any future collaborations between music therapists and speech therapists, um, what do you think that that would, or could look like?
Isabelle: Yeah. I mean, for me, I, I, As I mentioned earlier in the course, I like, I really enjoy like collaborations, right? Like between music therapy and speech and also OT and PT. Like I, I love that. And so even outside the hospital settings, um, now I do more private work, right? And some of them are, you know, it's not non clinical, but like, I, I don't see that as the end to collaborations.
Isabelle: [00:58:00] Like I would love to, like, you know, if I have a kid refer to me, um, who may benefit from. You know, like support from speech therapists, like I'm not going to be able to like, work on the specific domains that speech therapist is trained to do, right? And I don't, you know, that's why we don't say we're working on like speech, but then like only as the only goal, but then like, I would love to like be able to connect with like the speech therapist that the kid may see.
Isabelle: And, or maybe this is like, we can like support each other, right? And, and like, like how you ask, like, what are some practical ways that speech therapists can use music to kind of like engage when they'll report with the client. And that's the same thing, right? Like how, you know, maybe a music therapist would like.
Isabelle: Um, feedback from speech therapist. I'm like, Okay, what are some songs that are really helpful? Or maybe you're working on this particular speech therapy like goals? How can we pick up songs that can be relevant and aligned to to meet that goals together. So something that I wanted to. Like 
Garrett: songs that have particular speech targets or something like that.
Garrett: [00:59:00] Or yeah, I can see that Um, someone asked one, one question in the chat and we have just a couple of minutes, we can try to address it. But, um, they said I work with kids with autism many times. They enjoyed music and we'll script lines from songs, but are frequently resistant to others singing along. So any tips for this situation?
Garrett: Any examples of what you've done, um, with less responsive patients? Do you have any ideas? I have a couple, but, um, 
Isabelle: Yes, and so, yeah, of course, this is kid personality dependent. So what I'm about to say, you know, exclusive, right? But then, um, exhaustive, like, list, but, you know, I've met kids who don't want other people to sing along either.
Isabelle: They're like, you just want to be like, you know, themselves kind of thing. What about humming? Like, is making humming sound along with them? Okay. Like, or is it playing an instrument while they sing? Um, it depends on the setting, right? So, Scooter, do you have, um, any, Otherwise, I 
Garrett: totally know. I think those are great.
Garrett: [01:00:00] And, um, and I think it is a bit of problem solving here. Uh, so, uh, you know, I, I might try various methods. Um, like maybe one might be playing the background song along forever. Let's say it's a group. Um, you, you might want to play the song at a little bit of a louder volume. So you know, everyone's kind of has this track that they're trying to match.
Garrett: Um, you might want to practice taking turns and see if that, that helps. There's, um, also. Something that takes a little bit of time, you know, uh, but hopefully once kids get used to it, they'll, they'll be more open to it. And it takes a little bit of, you know, obviously positive reinforcement for when they're more open to being flexible, but, um, you can do something like create your own little band where everyone has their parts.
Garrett: And so, you know, maybe there's two singers and. Two people like drumming along. I do this in beatboxing, which it's called the beatbox orchestra, where everyone has a different sound that they have to say, and when you get kids collaborating, and then after that first time that they start to do something together, I, Do you see like a little shift in their willingness to participate?
Garrett: And this is, you know, takes, it does take some time and iterations, but moving towards a little bit more, uh, you know, pro social flexible behavior. I think music can be helpful with that. So a little bit of problem solving. I hope that that maybe gave you some ideas or maybe open some. Possibilities that, not everything's foolproof and yeah, I've seen that too.
Garrett: So, of course 
Isabelle: group settings, individual settings, right? Like you said, taking turns in the group, but maybe in the individual session is taking turns between the therapist and the kid. Right. So 
Garrett: absolutely. yeah. So, well, thank you so much, Isabelle. Um, You're an inspiration, uh, and I always love talking with you and catching up.
Garrett: where, where can people find you really quickly? 
Isabelle: [01:02:00] I'm pretty easy to find on the internet, but Instagram seems to be my most engaging, like play. So at Music and Tales, you can find me, you can find me at, you know, on Google, like Isabelle Engler.com is, uh, is my site. Um, the website for the books are musicentails.org.
Garrett: Any last remarks or conclusions you'd like to leave us with? 
Isabelle: Oh, just really appreciate you all sharing like part of your day with us. Thank you so much, Garrett, for having me and inviting me like great questions and love the conversation.
Isabelle: So it's just been great and a pleasure to, to be part of this. 
Garrett: It's always lovely reconnecting. So thank you again, Isabel. And thank you. We look forward to seeing you again at another course. All right. Then everyone, Bye bye. 
Announcer: [01:03:00] Thank you for joining us for today's course. To complete the course, you must log into your account and complete the quiz and the survey. If you have indicated that you are part of the ASHA registry and entered both your ASHA number and a complete mailing address in your account profile prior to course completion, we will submit earned CEUs to ASHA.
Announcer: Please allow one to two months from the completion date for your CEUs to reflect on your ASHA transcripts. Please note that if this information is missing, we cannot submit to ASHA on your behalf. Thanks again for joining us. We hope to see you next time. 
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