S13E5: Harmony in Connection: Bridging Speech, Music, and Technology [00:00:00] Announcer: Welcome to SLP Learning Series, a podcast series presented by SpeechTherapyPD. com. The SLP Learning Series explores various topics of speech language pathology. Each season dives deeper into a topic with a different host and guests who are leaders in the field. Some topics include stuttering, AAC, sports concussion, Teletherapy ethics and more. [00:00:41] Announcer: Each episode has an accompanying audio course on speech therapy pd.com and is available for 0.1 ASHA. CEUs now come along with us as we look closer into the many topics of speech language pathology. [00:00:56] Garrett: My name is Garrett and I'll be your speech therapy p. com host for this mini podcast series tunes for talk music as a tool for language intervention. Today is the fifth installment and it's called harmony in connection, bridging speech, music, and technology. I mentioned before that I'm an SLP and I'm also a musician. [00:01:19] Garrett: So it's just my absolute pleasure and honor to talk about how music speech and language are all intimately related and how music can be a practical tool for therapy in a bunch of different ways. So before we get started, we have a few items to alert you to. So this course is one hour and will be offered for 0. [00:01:36] Garrett: 1 Asha CEUs. as far as financial disclosures go, we each receive An honorarium in Chucky, receive an honorarium from speechtherapypd. com, but we have no other. Disclosures and I'm so excited to talk with my dear friend and, um, the incredible and formidable Chucky Kim. Chucky is a music producer, a technologist and educator. [00:02:00] Garrett: He has billboard charting hits, , with artists like Jay Park. He has designed new interactive instruments and experiences with Warner, Snap and Artifon. In addition to serving as faculty at Columbia, The Juilliard school and researcher at the MIT media lab. Most importantly, he's a dog dad to the cutest pup in the world. [00:02:21] Garrett: And, and so just a little connective tissue. , just like I met with, , Isabel last week. I don't know if you remember Isabel Chucky, um, the pianist, but we also, yeah. , she's a music therapist now and she makes books. So we talked last week on the podcast. And so Chucky and I studied music together. [00:02:40] Garrett: And I feel like we just studied life broadly together at UCSD. And I consider him a dear friend and a mentor. And so it's, it's so cool that we've spent a lot of our time, Chuckie, like improvising and music together, but now we get to do that on a podcast with speech in a way. And so. And that's another connection, I guess, that we'll talk about, but maybe before we get into it, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? [00:03:06] Garrett: Um, what's your, what's your superhero origin story with regards to, to music? [00:03:14] Chucky: Yeah. Superhero, man, that's a tall order for, but no, so currently, I'm, I'm in New York City, , living in Brooklyn and I've been here for about four years now and one of the main reasons for my move here was to do my doctorate of education at Columbia. [00:03:33] Chucky: And, I think a lot of what I'm doing at Columbia, and one of the reasons why I decided to come to Columbia is I spent a lot of time exploring not just music education and how it works in like, you know, community. , I'm here because I've been studying a lot of, not even just studying, but over the past, I would say maybe 15 years or so. [00:03:55] Chucky: I've been. Very fascinated with arts education, particularly like community based arts education, uh, mostly kind of seeing how it weaves and moves in between, you know, after school community program, uh, enrichment, arts enrichment programs. , kind of existing within nonprofit spaces and so I was really fascinated by how, you know, the arts and music in particular. [00:04:18] Chucky: Really creates like, democratic and very emancipatory spaces, especially for for younger students. And, and technology kind of appeared to run parallel just because of, you know, it's how a lot of music is made today. Right? And, I mean, you know this, like your music was amazing. It was good hearing your music break, but, um, yeah, I think the, the origins of when I started to really become fascinated with music technology in particular, and really The kind of like the, the conversational zones between them is really what, as I was writing my dissertation for my doctorate, I started thinking a lot about origin stories in terms of like why I started music, especially being someone that was more self taught and you know, the first time I actually had some strong resemblances of formal music education was in college. [00:05:08] Chucky: And what I remembered and what I realized is that. You know, I started playing music when I was a sophomore in high school, when I'm really when I was about 15 years old. And before that, I had always wanted to play, you know, my. My mom was a great singer and, she always wanted me to learn music in different ways, but, you know, just whatever predicaments and contexts that our family had, like, I was never able to. [00:05:31] Chucky: So when I picked up the bass just from jamming with some friends and wanting to really fit in on like a community level, um, I also simultaneously remembered that I think about maybe two or three months later. My dad was a pastor at the church at the time. So I was looking around, I was throwing out some trash for my dad. [00:05:50] Chucky: And then when I opened up the dumpster, I saw like this, like really old beat up. Like, , it was like a beat up mixer. Right. And it had like four channels maybe. And for whatever reason, I was like, man, this actually looks like kind of like it would work. So I, you know, I dug it out super disgusting, you know, to get to. [00:06:09] Chucky: You know, took some water, dampened some towels, like wiped everything down and I took that mixture home and I figured out how to connect it to my computer and I started learning how to use this like really, people still use it, but I kind of consider it antiquated, but it's like, uh, it's a Cubase and, um, it's like this old school, like music production software. [00:06:29] Chucky: Very early on, I had, I didn't remember it until I was doing this dissertation, but, you know, kind of my interest in both like computers and, you know, just like really the emergence of the internet at that time. Um, and the popularization of it, I was really curious about how that and music would kind of intertwine together. [00:06:49] Chucky: And now looking back, I think that was kind of the moment where it was, it was such like a beautiful moment where you can record something and. really kind of explore what you're feeling in your room, like when, especially as a teenager, right? And then you could make something with it on your computer. [00:07:09] Chucky: You could share it or send it to your friends. And for whatever reason, and hopefully, you know, the, the magic moment is really when the person on the receiving end feels a similar thing that you're feeling. And that kind of became like, not just an obsession, but it became something that I constantly did over and over throughout the years. [00:07:28] Chucky: And it took on different shapes and forms, but you know, I really found, I think that's where my origin story lies, like where the moment that I discovered music and really started being a practitioner of it at the same time, like technology and how to use music within technology also kind of live together. [00:07:47] Chucky: So I think today that's kind of what I'm exploring. It's , what are those stories and what are those philosophical metaphors where you could really bind the two together? [00:07:56] Garrett: And that you, , just even thinking about the title, harmony and connection, you're talking about like making this emotional bond, uh, like across space through music, through technology, which like, I suppose both music is the first form of technology that allows you to, you know, it's, it's similar to speech and language in that you're using sound, using vibration to transmit something. [00:08:24] Garrett: Or to synchronize with something, but I think music does this special thing that like surpasses a lot of the, representational language that we use. And it like hits right at this emotional depth. Like we can really bond with each other emotionally. I love that you talked about that connection, how you were able to, like, that was one of the driving forces was this, like, you wanted to bond socially with others. [00:08:46] Garrett: Yeah. And it's cool that like, you know, music is this crazy technology to do that. And now we have technology to spread music. Across space and across time. You know, we can hopefully create more social bonds and more emotional connections that way. Yeah. And I think it's something, you know, one thing that struck me is like, just thinking about how you were able to move all of these. [00:09:12] Garrett: Parts of your life and, and combine them and really find something beautiful at the intersections of all these things. And so I really liked it, you know, on this podcast, we haven't talked to anyone that's been not in the therapy world specifically, not like not a music therapist or a speech therapist. [00:09:30] Garrett: So I really feel like this is going to be so cool to talk to you. Um, and see how, you know, cause I feel like we're all developing things that could help each other. But we don't have this, like, , we're these different parts of the brain and we don't have the white matter tracks to connect us yet, you know? [00:09:47] Garrett: So, um, it's cool to, to think about how we can make this connection as well. [00:09:52] Chucky: Yeah. Likewise. I'm excited. [00:09:54] Garrett: Yeah, so I guess maybe first of all, what do you think? In your, as a music educator, what is your definition of music? [00:10:03] Chucky: Yeah. I mean, it's funny that you, you, you asked that question. Like I, so, you know, in my dissertation alone, like it's, you know, I'm, I'm housed within the education school, right? [00:10:14] Chucky: So it's very much involved in the process of how do you whatever it is you're studying, how do you make it applicable to the art and the practice of education itself? Like just, you know, some people view it as like a transference of information or dissemination information in very accurate and even just ways, but it's like really under trying to understand what music is in light of the pedagogical process. [00:10:42] Chucky: Like, and how do you get a room full of people to understand something in a particular perspective? While giving light to the multitude of perspectives that exist and, um, and so, you know, I went through a lot of different methodologies to figure out, , do I want to do more of like a quantitative study on, , experiences, statistical probabilities, but what I ultimately landed on was. [00:11:03] Chucky: I started writing a more of a philosophical inquiry. So thinking about even for myself as someone that, you know, I, for my master's, I studied philosophy of religion for undergrad, I was studying like social theory. So I'm really fascinated by what are the sort of principles and underlying concepts that bind these sort of. [00:11:24] Chucky: You know, cultural expressions, , social demographic expressions, like, how, what are the things that really bring them together and meld them and, um, so in the process of writing more of a philosophical dissertation. I realized that the clarity of how you define the term that you're talking about is extremely important, especially when you're talking about things that are cross disciplinary. [00:11:47] Chucky: And I think so much of what I discovered is that, a lot of our fields exist in silos, right? Because we have so many of our own languages. You can think of them as genres, right? We have our own like theories and methods like that, buy in and root our practices and everything and what we need to do. [00:12:01] Chucky: Um but from a philosophical perspective, it's like, what are, how do we define one thing and how does that relate to another? And so in the process of doing this, like, you know, I've been thinking a lot about music and what music is and, and I, for me, I feel like the definition I came upon is that I think music is really simple in that it's a sound in pattern. [00:12:24] Chucky: I think, I think that's what it really is. Like meaning sound can be a like a vocal phrase, sound can be You know, like a guitar, like pick sound can be a chord sound can be a bird chirping, whatever it is that you hear that you within your context or whatever is available to you. I like thinking of it as sound itself, because sound kind of exists beyond what we think of as speech or language or grammar, any of these things that we kind of predetermined within a. [00:12:58] Chucky: Particular like category of communication, but when you think about sound, sound is kind of nebulous, right? And it really starts tapping into what's the context of the sound. Why do you like the sound? Like, what does it mean to you? Like, there's so many things that are wrapped up in what a sound is. And, um, and I think that the idea of putting a sound and pattern pattern is more of like a, it's a way of organizing. [00:13:23] Chucky: in particular expression of something, right? It's like the moment you put a particular sound into a pattern of some sort and it's able to loop, then you have a sort of a version of like a constructed meaning of like what it is that you're trying to express. And I think there's a lot of creativity from the perspective of like how you form something and how you form the repetition of a phrase. [00:13:46] Chucky: I think says a lot about, you know, And, and it really gives a lot of like metaphorical, it has a, it has a lot of metaphorical affordances to like, you know, what music may be and how to use and how you can use it in other situations. And more importantly, I feel like to me, I really believe that music is accessible to everyone. [00:14:05] Chucky: It's just that most people never think they can be a musician, but I wonder if it's because we've defined music in a way where it naturally. Create some sort of like performance barrier or some kind of, you know, thing that keeps people out. But yeah, but I think that's what for me, music is, is a sound embedded. [00:14:25] Garrett: Totally. And I think speech therapists and music therapists, you know, depending on what discipline you're in, uh, you sort of define music differently. And I think a lot of speech therapists, I don't know, , At least from my perspective of what I see is that they tend to define it as like, , or maybe not even define it. [00:14:41] Garrett: It's not like specifically defined, but it's something like it's a tool I use to help my kids get, uh, more motivated to do something, or maybe it's a tool I use to help them speak more clearly. , and when you broaden the definition to just sound and pattern, you realize that, um, you know, you could think of speech itself as having. [00:15:01] Garrett: Musical qualities, you know, almost the most important parts of speech are, are musical, you know, like prosody really is the emotional component of speech when you speak with a child, for example, like infant directed speech. I think most speech therapists will know, like mother ease right IDS. When you are speaking to the child, it's not like they're really listening to the semantic meaning, but they understand the emotional component behind that just based on your, um, your prosody, your, your pitch changes and your rhythmic phrasing and the repetition that's involved in all of that, like these musical aspects of speech itself. [00:15:38] Garrett: are really like the critical components for social bonding, I think, and what makes speech so powerful. So I feel like when we open up, , to that broader definition of music, like you're talking about, I think it's a helpful reframe for speech therapists as well. , because, because I think you start to think of music as, Really, , uh, inseparable , from speech. [00:16:00] Chucky: Yeah, no, it's, it's funny you mentioned that, like Mother Ease is particularly because the way for me that I, for myself, how I came upon that definition of what works for me is that I was actually like looking, I was at a coffee shop and I was watching like a mother play with her child with her son, right? [00:16:19] Chucky: And then she was literally like, I think the child was like maybe like, I don't know, like two years old or whatnot. Um, but she was like, she was looking at him smiling and she's like, she's like, Oh, like, what's this? Right. And she was like, that's sound. And then she was like, what's this? And she was , like, that's music. [00:16:37] Chucky: And like, you know, the kids like lighting up because, you know, there's a lot of things happening, right? You have really simple definitions of what sound is versus what music is. And then more importantly, though, the thing that you don't see defined, um, from just hearing something is that. You know, you're looking at how, you know, the mother is gazing into the eyes of her child. [00:16:58] Chucky: You're looking at that sort of like deep awareness and like social connection that they have with each other. And more importantly, like, you're also not seeing like the laughter and like, you know, the fun that the kid's having because of like, you know, the kid's learning, right. And so when you think for me, when I, when I saw that whole like conversation and expression happen, it was like, that's when it dawned on me. [00:17:20] Chucky: I'm like, wow, like this is like the most simplest way to understand music. You're just taking sound to putting it in patterns. [00:17:27] Garrett: Yeah, that's awesome. And I love that, that, that story too, because it shows how, um, I think one thing that we forget as speech therapists is, you know, we tend to take this, uh, typical school model of like, I'm the teacher and I will describe something to you for you to learn it. [00:17:46] Garrett: But really what I learned from me, and maybe you learned this, uh, too, in music, like through Kamau and stuff like that. The best way to learn something is by. Like the apprenticeship model, when you learn music, you go in, you imitate something so that, you know, you're making this emotional connection. [00:18:03] Garrett: You're maybe you're trying to mimic what the person's doing. And then they'll slowly give you, they'll give you a chance to do it. And then they give you feedback on it slowly. You know, it's not like they're like here, read this book on music and then try and figure it out by yourself. There's like this really. [00:18:20] Garrett: Beautiful connection. Like it's born out of this connection. The learning is born out of connection. And I think music, um, we can learn a lot as speech therapists from the way that music is taught. , because that's, that's the way, you know, even in the research that's shown to be. That's how language is taught as well. [00:18:37] Garrett: You know, we need to have, we need to form some emotional bond. If you need to attend to the same thing together and we need to imitate and watch and have a slow model and then, be scaffolded by, you know, by the parent showing what is the right thing to say and do. Um, so yeah, yeah. I don't know if he, as a music, uh, educator, if that's something that you've, done as well, if you've used that model. [00:19:06] Chucky: No, I think what you're saying is right in that, you know, it's, I feel like if you, if we break down like speech to its most basic element, right. And it, , like to me, what you're saying means a lot because, you know, my mom is, my mom's a great singer and, um, she. She, you know, she was only able to have like a junior high school education. [00:19:32] Chucky: And, , and so at the time, like she, , she, she was a great singer. She was recruited to be, to join like this opera program in Korea and she was never, never able to go. But the thing about what's interesting is that, you know, over the years, , my mom has a very, she has a very, you know, she has a very deep speech stutter. [00:19:50] Chucky: And , so much of the times, like I remember watching her, like, you know, whenever she's like stressed or anxious or, or even just like finding difficulty to articulate what it is that she's feeling, you know, like, , stutter will start coming out and it'll take her a while for her to like, you know, form the words out. [00:20:06] Chucky: But what's fascinating is that the moment she starts singing, like, there's like no stutter, like, you know, there's none of that stuff. Right. So, so that idea of like, You know, for me, it's like kind of seeing how, you know, when she tells me that she loves me, right. And there might be like a stutter that, you know, comes before that. [00:20:28] Chucky: And when she sings that she loves me, it's, you know, there, there's different weights of impact that happens just based on, you know, obviously one's a song versus one's just like her talking to me, but as a genre, but when, when you really break it down, it's like, I feel like there are so many different ways to communicate a particular. [00:20:48] Chucky: You know, it could be emotion, it could be an intellectual concept, it could be as concrete or abstract as you want, but there are so many different ways to actually communicate that to a person. And I think for me, kind of seeing from very young, like whether it's because she was speaking to me in Korean and I only knew how to respond in English versus, you know, her stuttering versus her singing. [00:21:12] Chucky: Already there, there's like so many different modes of how, you know, speech and communication is happening to me. So I think, I think it's so important to kind of see, to me it's like how music really opens up. This idea of like, you know, what, what is the function of a sound? And what is the function of actually being able to articulate? [00:21:32] Chucky: a phrase, right? Does saying love, I love you to someone, does it mean the same thing when that person doesn't have eye contact with you versus someone singing it to you, right? Even though you don't see their eyes. The idea of love and the idea of even friendship changes when you have eye contact versus not, right? [00:21:52] Chucky: Like there's, there's so many other things that are at play. And I think that's, what's really fascinating about music for me, because when you don't, especially when you're working in a room full of children, it's like, you're not using necessarily words or sounds that everyone seems to understand right at a certain point, but. [00:22:13] Chucky: You're really having everyone learn a new instrument, right? Take on embody a different kind of voice. And when you have a room full of people doing that together, that functions by a very different set of like, I don't know, syntax or like language categories or whatnot, then you have a very different form of communication at play. [00:22:31] Chucky: And I'm not, not, in essence, it's not different in that, you know, the principles are like, the values might be the same or the goals of like, what communication might be. Um, but it's just another angle. And I think that other angle helps teach other people about, you know, well, what's the use of timbre? Like, there's a timbre and tone of one thing, articulate one concept better than another, like, another way of saying, like, how you say something is to my mind, like, just as important as what you say to someone. [00:23:03] Chucky: And I think a lot of that comes into play when we're talking about, you know, really social bonds. Like, how do we actually do that? [00:23:10] Garrett: Yeah. Yeah. , you can think of someone saying, I love you like super robotically and not looking at you and, and, and, you know, someone who may have a stutter, but you know, is, um, really connected to you emotionally and, and like, you know, is even if it's stuck, , you can see on the face, like you're saying embodied, right? [00:23:34] Garrett: There's this like. Embodied emotion that you can't help but pick up on. And I think the reframe, I think for a lot of speech therapists, something that will be helpful is that's, that's a reef. That's a musical reframe right there. That's music. And you know, one of the famous, techniques that speech therapists use is called MIT melodic intonation therapy. [00:23:56] Garrett: And it's usually used for stroke patients you know, who, uh, with broken can't. express themselves well, maybe they understand language, but it's hard for them to get the words out. , sometimes using melody will help to, uh, express, , get that, uh, thing that they're trying to say out. , and I think that, you know, music as this, as this really powerful emotional force, um, I think it is a great reframe. [00:24:26] Garrett: I feel like I'm sure you've seen this, but there's so many, there's this, , like Spanish ballerina was on, on YouTube who has dementia, Alzheimer's dementia, she can't talk, she can't move. And then, you know, someone plays Swan Lake and then she's just like living the music and it's just beautiful. It like, she starts singing, you know, and, and it's like, there's this really embodied. [00:24:50] Garrett: Memory, like music can really conjure memories and emotions and it, it can motivate movement better than just simple directions from somebody. Like if someone says, you know, move, you know, talk to me or tell me something. It's not as, uh, it's not the same thing as hearing music and activating all of these, you know, pre mortar areas and, and things that, that, that really fire you up. [00:25:17] Garrett: Um, and so I think yeah, [00:25:20] Garrett: go ahead [00:25:21] Chucky: I think on that, on that point, the, you know, the, the, we, we obviously, we live in a technological era, like in terms in the popular sense, right? And, and I think what happens when we live in a technological era is that, you know, we are, we are thinking and functioning as a society more and more in the sense of like the, you know, The ways that our current technological process processes operate. [00:25:50] Chucky: Right? So, in terms of, like, how we assign particular analytics and metrics to particular ways of knowing, um, those are the things that tend to dominate our discourse of, like, how we come to see the efficacy of the process. Right? Or the, the productiveness of a particular thing. Right? But. I think what's been really interesting thing about technology is that if we, if you kind of think about technology in the wide scope of the, it's historical meaning, right? [00:26:18] Chucky: That technology is really like a process, right? It's a process or it's something that humans fashion in order to help better activate a particular tasks that they're trying to do or a way of knowing the world. And, and I think when it comes to speech, and I think when it comes to understanding, like, how we put things into patterns or whatnot, is that, you know, technology. [00:26:43] Chucky: Is one way of understanding how we use a tool or like technology is a tool. That's one way of understanding it, but like, from another perspective, it's like thinking about everything technologically, right? Meaning that just because we push a button, you know. The only reason why that, but that button has a particular function and it does something like on our phones, for example, it opens an app or it, you know, copy and paste, like, you know, whatever, however you want to see that there's a specific design to what a technology does. [00:27:11] Chucky: Right? Like someone has actually, you know, designed the UX. To create a particular response and experience to what that little button will do. And I think in a similar way, like, if we kind of broaden the scope of technology to understand language and writing and words within that technological context, it's like, you know, just because we don't think of writing as technology doesn't mean that it's not one, right? [00:27:33] Chucky: Or speech as technology because That too is also a function and a process and things that people have decided and canonized along the way to determine like when you say the word love, right? This is what it means, right? And therefore this is how you're supposed to act to it. But when we think about it from the perspective of tone and music and, You know, how in what context context and in what ways we use that word, even though the definition of and the assigned and the design of that word love is of a particular thing that we're trying to get across. [00:28:07] Chucky: Maybe that word has been spoken in ways that are very. opposite of what the definition is supposed to be, right? And so in part of like rescuing what the meaning of the word love might be and it's, you know, it's intent and it's design is to find other ways to communicate what that word is. So maybe sometimes it's like detaching it from a context like which we often see and in a lot of like orphans and like foster care, you know, children and all that, particularly music education. [00:28:38] Chucky: But from another perspective, it's like, Even saying the word love or putting it into sentences and phrases and tonalities and, you know, melodics, right? It starts to change the way that a person receives that word and how they understand it. Because of the way that it's, you're shifting the context in which it's delivered. [00:28:58] Chucky: So, I know that that was, that was, you know, I'm like figuring it out as I'm saying all that right now. But, but I do feel like, you know, When we start seeing like words and speech and tone and music within this light of like, you can actually design the way that it's delivered. You know, I think that's a really beautiful way to think about technology where technology is not so much a predetermined set of things that you're supposed to use in order to do your job better. [00:29:24] Chucky: Right? That's usually how a lot of people take it. But no, I actually like it. You know, technology is more, it's a way of thinking about everything that already exists around you that. Okay. When you look at everything, it's, everything has a design intent and everything's been designed to be that way in a particular manner. [00:29:40] Chucky: And when you start realizing that it's been formed in a particular way, you know, as speech, as people, as speech pathologists, as musicians, as technology, as educators, you start understanding that because these things are codified and canonized, it doesn't necessarily always make them correct for a particular situation. [00:30:00] Chucky: So I think the way is that you can understand how something is formed. Is also a way of disseminating information. the process of forming itself, right? Like you're giving the tools to understand what form is. And I think that's a powerful moment, particularly for what I've seen in like musicians, what I've seen in producers, what I've seen in composers. [00:30:21] Chucky: Sound designers is that the moment you understand like how different genres or different ways of articulating something are a form and that they're conventions. Um, you also realize at the same time that you're also capable of forming and creating your own conventions and your own ways of trying to communicate a particular thought or idea. [00:30:44] Chucky: And I think within each student and each young person or whoever it is you're working with, I think You know, that becomes even more crucial and pivotal because you have to, you know, it's, it's, it goes back to, like, really knowing, right, like, really knowing who it is that you're with and really knowing who it is that you're working with, really understanding, like, where they come from. [00:31:05] Chucky: And at the same time as a person with, you know, you're not, you're in, you're in a position of authority, your positionality changes when you become someone that's trying to assist or help it's understanding, like, you know, part of the responsibility of that position is to figure out new ways to help people understand and perform things. [00:31:25] Garrett: Definitely. [00:31:25] Garrett: That's core tenant. Number one is like the, the rapport. You build with, you know, the person you're working with is, and, you know, understanding, , the context that you're going into and how to work with them is that's everything that human relationship. And, you're saying a lot of awesome stuff, like how the, you know, the medium is, you know, we have the message and then we have the medium for the message, the medium might be speech or the medium might be music, but the and I think that this is one thing like you're saying that it's, sometimes it's good to use one or the other, like, depending on what message you want to get across and how the person might receive it. [00:32:07] Garrett: And then sometimes, , speech just doesn't work. And I can think about this, you know, uh, you're mentioning the mom example for your mom telling you, you love you, she loves you, for example, or even just my mom saying anything to me. Sometimes I don't. Because she's my mom. I don't, I don't take it in the way that she wants it. [00:32:25] Garrett: Um, so, sometimes hearing it in a musical form in some, some different context is better. And I feel like this is a place where music technology can really help because I think speech therapists might understand that. Okay. So yeah, I do see that music is important and I see that music can be a way to transmit a message. [00:32:44] Garrett: And I see that music can be sometimes, uh, more powerful than speech. Um, so, but I, but I, but I can't do music. You know, I, I, I don't sing or I don't have rhythm. Um, and I feel like this is a place now where we have these tools. To help us, um, you know, get that music out a little bit more easy. Do you have any examples of that? [00:33:10] Garrett: Is there anything that you use? Someone that maybe wants to use music to transmit messages? What tools might they be able to use? [00:33:21] Chucky: You know, I, I mean like the, there's a lot of free tools, right? I mean, obviously GarageBand for Mac users is, you know, it comes free on every computer. Um, there's the audacity. [00:33:32] Chucky: There's a lot of, you know, I've, I've been teaching a lot recently with, um, with Soundtrap, which is kind of like this free web browser based thing. Um, there's a lot for it. [00:33:43] Garrett: We'll put this for everyone in, um, [00:33:45] Chucky: yeah, [00:33:46] Garrett: yeah, later. [00:33:47] Chucky: So there's definitely a lot of tools out there, but. You know, the, the most difficult part about music production is that when someone hears music production, immediately they hear it as like, oh, like, I'm a musician. [00:34:04] Chucky: So I want to do this or I'm not a musician. Therefore, I don't think I can. Or I'm not good at technology, therefore, you know, there's like, there's so many things that like perceptions and assumptions that we bring in with us into this particular space. And I think there's a lot of different ways to actually explore it more than just the idea of, like, trying to make a beat, you know, like, making a beat is great. [00:34:28] Chucky: And I think that's like, it's really fun. It's actually, like, pretty simple if you, like, understand, like, the really, you know, you're just literally, there's a bunch of lines. on a sheet of paper, right? And you're just like, you're like making X marks, like at different points in the line. And that thing is like cycling over and over again. [00:34:46] Chucky: And however, whenever the sounds feel good, and you don't get tired of listening to it over and over again, like that's essentially the essence of how you make music, right? Especially for composing and creating things. Um, but I mean, that's for music itself, but I think helpful tool that I've found, you know, specifically, I've seen this with a lot of singers and, um, like in producing a lot of singers and working with a lot of singers, you know, that When you record your voice, maybe one simple technique for, especially for people that are very fascinated by speech and the delivery of bonds through speech, right? [00:35:25] Chucky: Like, you can actually just record your voice, like in one of these programs. It's like what, what, what an easy practice is that you record your voice. Say you read a paragraph or maybe you're writing a message to a friend or someone that you're working with and you want to deliver it in an audio form. [00:35:40] Chucky: Just, just record it. Just record yourself talking. Don't try to be perfect. You know, like. Maybe just record three takes, full takes of it without overdubbing. And then you choose the best one that communicates the best feeling and like, don't try to edit it too much. Right. And when you do that, you, you focus more on. [00:36:01] Chucky: You become less cognizant that you are being recorded, right, which is a big thing to overcome, and you start focusing more on how you're talking, like, how your mouth feels, like, are you breathing? Like, are you, you know, are you projecting the words enough, right? Like, you start focusing on things that you already know how to do as someone who, you know, speaks. [00:36:20] Chucky: Talks, right? And then when you load it up on the programs, you can just open up this thing called an equalizer. It's like an EQ and all it is, it's like a big graph that shows you like sound waves, right? Like, it's like the content and it shows you all of the different frequencies in which your voice is moving. [00:36:36] Chucky: And what's really fun is that you just start taking one of those points, you create a little mountain, like a peak, and you start moving it left and right, and you'll start hearing the different tones of your voice, like really being amplified. And what I've seen a lot of, what a lot of singers notice is that, you know, the really low tones, the very low parts of your voice, Are often the things that sound the warmest, like they're the things that really travel well across rooms. [00:37:04] Chucky: There are the things that feel very intimate, you know, there are things that it takes a lot of breath and a lot of lung capacity for you to say something in a lower tone, right? Just like if you go to a club, right? Like the thing that you hear in the bathroom across the hall from the actual venue is that you hear like the bass, like booming through the walls, right? [00:37:23] Chucky: You don't hear the high notes and the sharp notes reason is, is because bass actually travels and has a lot more power. And if that's true in music production and the clubs, it's like, it helps you think about like, you know, how do I deliver my voice in a message in a way where it might be a lower tone. [00:37:40] Chucky: Um, not like, you know, trying to like talk with, you know, but it's like, like literally just focusing on what parts of your voice actually accent. Like the warmer stuff, right? And then what, what points do you really use? Like the sharp stuff, like the really high pitch frequency stuff, um, high pitch frequency isn't like, you know, really noticing when you're using a lot of like sounds, like really like sharp tones, like to communicate a message more often than not, we're not as cognizant of like the spectrum of our frequencies. [00:38:12] Chucky: Right. Yeah. So, Yeah. Yeah. I think like, to me, like the, a lot of singers, I tend to see that happen with a lot of people. So some songs, like they sound better when they sing falsetto, which is like, you know, which is a, it almost sounds very vulnerable and it takes a lot of whispering. Some people sound better when you take it down like a notch. [00:38:30] Chucky: Right. So, you know, when I say music production, I I'm thinking more of like the overall, like how to understand your voice in, in different ways, like that there's so many There are so many tones and so many emotions and so many new ways of talking to someone. And I think to better understand how you do that for yourself, um, obviously it's like a great trait to learn how to speak in front of people, but you know, especially for those that you're trying to develop, especially if you're in like the business of developing other's voices, right? [00:39:03] Chucky: Whether it's music or whether it's speech, you know, then I think it's a helpful tool. [00:39:08] Garrett: Definitely. I'm going to try to make it, this is a bit of a long connection, but I think, so one thing that you mentioned for everyone, that's not a music producer, , that might not have, maybe they haven't used garage band for, uh, before, um, you know, you could just open up the computer and you can record sound in, and then you can do things with the sound. [00:39:26] Garrett: It's like a, a paint canvas for sound. And so one of the things that Chucky was talking about is using an EQ. That means that you can change the, um, you can change how the sound. What parts of the sound pop out. It's almost like if you painted something on a canvas and you made some parts of the, painting, like more colored in certain areas, so you can make things pop out in the drawing for you. [00:39:50] Garrett: And so one thing that we know as speech therapists is that, um, you know, there are these ways that kids have trouble, uh, oftentimes, not all the time, but it's often the case that a kid who struggles with language later on, um, they're early reactions to sound on a subcortical level are, um, are impaired in some way. [00:40:17] Garrett: Like they can't hear the pitches as well. They can't hear the timing as well. Um, the timbre, like they're not processing them as clearly. And what they show is that musical training, things where you have to focus on sound in a different way, actually, um, will help them process sound better, have better language outcomes, read better, things like that. [00:40:40] Garrett: And so what I feel like this, um, is a great exercise for is just attending to sound. In a different way. You're you're thinking about these different parts of the sound. And this is also developing for kids, for everyone in a caseload. If you have them go into these free programs and mess around with the sound, like Jackie was saying, record their voice in mess around to see how their voice can change, what you're doing is you're making them attend to their own voice. [00:41:09] Garrett: It's developing metacognitive strategies for them. Number one. So they're thinking about when they're talking, which is something that we can't take for granted. Cause that's one of the first barriers to helping someone talk better is like them actually understanding and knowing when they're talking. [00:41:27] Garrett: And then secondly, it's helping them process. Those different parts of the sound and pay attention to them. Um, cause one thing that they show in, in, in kids, um, is that right. These, these early process, these early processing deficits in sound, , are number one environmental to some degree. So, , maybe in their background at home, they're hearing, uh, They're not engaging with the sound, like the sound is more like language might be the TV on. [00:41:57] Garrett: So it might be like noise that they're hearing that's unimportant. So they're registering more noise in their environment as unimportant. So the signal to noise ratio is like tilted towards noise. And so what this exercise is doing is making them shift that ratio, signal to noise ratio. So there's more signal. [00:42:19] Garrett: And so I think that's totally an awesome thing. And I think production in general, um, , for everyone going back to the metaphor again of the canvas, we've, I've done this before with kids and I'm sure you have, where you I've seen you actually were in your videos where you're making a beat with kids and you, they make awesome stuff. [00:42:40] Garrett: That process itself. Is totally a speech therapy activity. Um, like I've had groups of kids that will make a beat together and man, there's something special about, uh, that, that project based learning and having them be proud of something that they make number one, and then number two, um, it's sound based, so they're using their practicing and their. [00:43:03] Garrett: Focusing on their, , sound minds, let's say, um, and then third, um, they're building social bonds because I mean, we talked about this before, but there's actually a whole bunch of research, um, about how, if you were listening to music with somebody or clapping along on the same rhythm, if you're listening to the same beat, you start to get neurally entrained to them. [00:43:28] Garrett: So your brainwaves are moving at the same. Frequency and the same rhythm. And after that, you're more likely to be pro social with your group. So any speech therapist that has a social group where they're working with, you know, maybe they're artistic kids that, um, are working on trying to, uh, on social goals and pragmatic goals, doing some music activity together, it could be in garage band, like you're saying, making a song together, being on beat together will actually, um, help them be more social afterwards. [00:44:00] Chucky: I don't know. I mean, you know, you know, this is, this is a side note, but like major world religions have understood this for centuries. Right. It's like when you have a group of people singing together, chanting together, it just naturally creates this understanding and like a community sort of cohesion. [00:44:19] Chucky: Right. Um, for whatever purposes, whether they're good or bad, you want to, you know, that's, that's up to your own discretion and your judgment. But I think that practice alone is really, it's a way of helping people feel not only just bonded, but like. It kind of builds a sense of trust too. Right. That when you, when you're aligned with people, it's, it's like, you know, there's like that pop is saying like, you know, all of that, we're on the same wavelength, right. [00:44:44] Chucky: It's like, I know, you know, [00:44:45] Chucky: people in Boston said this all the time when we were there together, but it's like, it's literally that, right. It's like when you have a group of people that are all kind of riding the same wavelength together, quite literally, I didn't know they meant quite literally, but if you look at the research, it means quite literally. [00:44:59] Chucky: Right. Like your brain moves are like, they're matched. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a lot that happens there and, and I, and I think the way to do that, like, part of it is like, definitely, you know, having common sounds that are moving in patterns together with enough, like, moments of like, where things change so that it keeps it interesting. [00:45:22] Chucky: Um, but, but I think on that note, like, there's, um, have you heard of the guy, uh, He's a researcher at UC San Francisco. He is a surgeon, but his name is Charles Lim. He did a lot of studies on jazz improvisation and like the brain. He did a lot of MRI. [00:45:38] Garrett: Oh, did he, did he, is he the one that put a Herbie Hancock in the, uh, fMRI? [00:45:43] Garrett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:45:47] Chucky: So like his articles really fascinating because like there's a section of him when he was analyzing the data of like which parts of the break and fire up when you know someone's improvising or whatnot. And there's a particular part of the article that like was like so moving to me and that, you know, anytime a musician would improvise. [00:46:06] Chucky: The part of the prefrontal cortex that gets like deactivated are the ones generally associated with like, um, like problem solving, right? It's like, that's kind of one of the areas that generally get deactivated and the parts that get activated, I believe, are in like the limbic cortex. Area of the brain, but that aside, what's more important is that the parts that get activated are the areas of their brain that are generally associated with narrative building, right? [00:46:35] Chucky: And like identity building. So, like, it's the part of the brain that tries to bring and weave together a lot of disparate pieces of information that helps someone articulate their story of who they are. Right? So when you start looking at music and this ability to. improvise to play along together with people at certain moments to like do your own thing and come back. [00:46:56] Chucky: I think that weaving in and out of what happens on on your brain and on like the neurological level is that you really start to see the formations of someone being able to articulate. Their own sense of self and like really being able to differentiate that and what that is. Um, obviously this research is still like, it's very nascent, right? [00:47:15] Chucky: So like they're, it's starting to happen more and more, but I think that idea is something that's really beautiful because it's something that musicians know very well, right. Or people who have played music for the longest time, you know, part of this quest of finding your own sound and articulating your own sound or playing like yourself is like, it's just like this weird dynamic of like, I want to play with people and I want to be with people, but at the same time, I want to be different too. [00:47:42] Chucky: Right. But I want to be, but like not so different where I'm alone. Yeah. But I want to kind of like, you know, you know, be able to still exist and be accepted and belong to something. [00:47:52] Garrett: It's not exact sameness. It's like, you know, finding your space in the whole. [00:47:58] Chucky: Exactly. And I think part of that is like, you know, as people who are trying to educate or trying to serve or trying to empower, or like, you know, not only are you doing that for yourself, but You're also tasked with the responsibility of trying to figure out ways to help other like you're like curating experiences and tools for other people to like pick and choose and be like, well, Oh, like, I didn't know you could do that. [00:48:23] Chucky: So like, maybe this person will take that and a little bit of this and a little bit of that and weave it into their own voice. Right. [00:48:28] Garrett: Definitely. I love that. And just, , uh, are there any other, just as a, you know, I know you've worked at, Artifon in places like that. Um, and this is a little bit of an aside, but for anyone that's looking to, you know, use music more as a tool to like activate this bonding mechanism for their speech therapy groups, let's say, are there any specific like tools that, that you would, you might, uh, recommend some kind of instrument or, uh, [00:49:00] Chucky: I mean, you know, like to be completely honest, like we are living In a renaissance of music instruments right now, like there are so many new toys, tools, and you know, things coming out like every like month, right there. [00:49:14] Chucky: It's like, it's so saturated in all that. It's kind of debilitating in terms of like, where do you even begin? Right? Yeah, paradox of choice. But I would say that, you know, to me, like, it's less about finding a tool that is effective. I think a lot of people that are unfamiliar with These, you know, with music instruments, , we're often looking for something that we could immediately use and employ within our context. [00:49:45] Chucky: Right. Um, I think that's like, that's a difficult approach because no one size fits all in any of these situations, even for, for music education. Right. Um, but what I would say is that, you know, the greatest challenge for anyone beginning to start music is, it's really finding the instrument that you most connect with. [00:50:07] Chucky: Right. So like my challenge is less about like anything that I would recommend. I can provide a list and I can email it to you. You guys can disseminate it. But I think the perspective is a little different in that it's more about like, you know, searching for the instrument that you really connect with. [00:50:22] Chucky: For me, I happen and I'm, and I feel very fortunate to have found like the bass guitar when I was really young, for some reason, like I played it and like, Maybe it was a frequency range of the bass that kind of matched like how I like to talk. I don't know. Like there's gonna be so many things like that were expressive of what that instrument means. [00:50:39] Chucky: But for most people, like, you know, if you think your voice is your instrument and you really feel like every time you talk or sing or whatever, like if you're, whenever you talk, there's some sort of resonance that you feel very connected to. Um, if you see your voice as an instrument, then I would say even before buying any music technology tool, like take a few music voice lessons, right. [00:51:02] Chucky: And like really start to understand like what your voice is, like what are the ranges of your voice? How far high can you push it? How far low can you push it? How do you, how do you breathe in between things, right? It's like, there's that route you can take if someone is like, very, like, you need to really, you're very kinesthetic and you have to have your hands on something, like, try going to a music store and just start hitting around things or pushing buttons, like, there's so many ways, I think part of the discovery, the way of discovering a tool that will work for your context is really finding a, figuring out the instrument and the tool that works for you, because, like, I think if we're talking about social bonding, They also have to see you like really become enjoying it, whatever it is you're doing. [00:51:44] Chucky: Right, true. Because that says more than anything else, it doesn't matter if you are playing the same instrument or not. Like if you see someone really enjoying it and like going in, like that's the feeling that other people are gonna like, want and like, and be open to like hearing from. So definitely. [00:51:59] Chucky: Yeah. I, I, I would go on that journey that that's more what it's, [00:52:03] Garrett: yeah. Yeah, yeah. I would totally recommend everyone to. To find an instrument, even if you don't feel like you're musical and you're right, that, that enthusiasm is, is a contagious, like I've noticed at least in my own practice, when I work with kids and I'm, you know, they could totally tell what I'm excited about. [00:52:20] Garrett: Whatever I'm sharing, uh, and whatever speech therapy activity it is. If I found it boring, they're likely going to find it boring too. So, you know, part of speech therapy is, you know, finding those things that also, uh, tickle your interests and your options. Let's say [00:52:36] Chucky: exactly. [00:52:37] Garrett: Well, thank you so much, Chucky. [00:52:39] Garrett: You mean, I, I just, there's a couple of real important questions I got to ask you. , if you were to take five albums with you, Physical albums onto a desert island, what would you take? [00:52:50] Chucky: Okay, uh, [00:52:55] Chucky: Marvin Gaye's What's Going On, it's particularly the Detroit mix, I don't know if anyone knows what it is, but it's the original, I found it in Japan, actually, I found it at like a, not there, but like a, like an actual vinyl shop in Japan. And it's the version of the album that Marvin Gaye himself actually mixed in Detroit before It went to LA and became very Hollywood and got all these crazy streams on it So that one I would take I've loved that album that one breathed new life into it. [00:53:28] Chucky: Um, I love uh, definitely [00:53:34] Chucky: Cold like cold trains love supreme Um D'angelo's voodoo. I love that one What's another one I would take [00:53:48] Garrett: That's the one with really love, right? The voodoo. [00:53:50] Chucky: Yeah. Oh no, no, no, no. The one, no, the old one. Oh, got it. That's all the classics. Spanish. Yeah, exactly. Um, Miles Davis. So what I listened to that religiously and, um, you know, I actually, Robert Glasper is in my element. [00:54:11] Chucky: I still like, I still [00:54:13] Garrett: classic, man. [00:54:14] Chucky: I love that one. Yeah. That one. Like, yeah, [00:54:18] Garrett: Love it. I was just telling every, every guest they've all had, like, just really, everyone's had such a different, uh, taste in music and it's beautiful, man. Uh, and, and like, like Isabel gave me some classical albums last week and there's, there's been something I've connected with for everyone. I think yours, , like since we played together, we're most aligned, but, um, it's cool. [00:54:40] Garrett: Like everyone's music taste and the style of speaking and everything has been, uh, you know. Sort of in alignment. So it's been really cool to see. Um, so I guess maybe we can, we just have five minutes and I wanted to open it up for anyone that had any questions, for Chucky, , about music education in general, about technology, um, about connection, uh, anything for us, feel free to put it in the chat. [00:55:06] Garrett: Um, maybe while we wrap up, if you have any, um, You know, things that you're excited about, things that you're, uh, working on thinking about in things from music education that we should know about. Uh, maybe you can tell us [00:55:22] Chucky: I think the most, I think the thing that I'm most excited, well, there are two things I'm most excited about. [00:55:28] Chucky: Like one is that I've recently fallen completely in love with, with like house music and like dance music. And part of it came from like this, like. You know, it's the first time in my life where I really felt very embodied while actually listening to this kind of music and like enjoying it in venues. [00:55:47] Chucky: And so I've been kind of in like this whole new stand of like, you know, really just going headstrong at that direction, learning like the genres and the histories of it. So I've been making a lot of that. And so there's some projects that are coming up that I'm very excited about. Um, but the other part is, is also like, even I've been really excited about, like I'm finishing my dissertation right now and I'll be defending it next month. [00:56:08] Chucky: Then. You know, I, I haven't really read a lot of like philosophies of music technology that, you know, root this, the connections of these terms and all that. So I'm actually really, that's probably the thing that I'm most excited about currently, you know, for the next month and I'm hoping to like get it published or whatnot. [00:56:26] Chucky: So yeah, that's, that's kind of my writing right now. [00:56:29] Garrett: Beautiful. So there's a question from Christy, , free, easy to use musical and sound websites for kids. Uh, anything simple, cause effects with visuals, something that you've, that you've seen [00:56:40] Chucky: definitely that, Oh my gosh, there's like, there's actually a couple that I discovered. [00:56:46] Garrett: So, yeah, if, can you write it in the chat if you go to put everyone, [00:56:51] Chucky: I'm going to, I'll put it in the chat. So that way we can just like go to it. Um, so there's this thing. There's that. What is this? Oh, let me put in the checkers. [00:57:08] Garrett: Sorry. Yeah, you put in the chat. Sorry, Christy. And, um, someone else said through your series, I appreciate the guests and the topics that have been presented door discovery has been open for me with regards to planning sessions. [00:57:21] Garrett: And so many of, , uh, your students respond to music. And so you're incorporating it. Um, and it's encouraging you to be brave. Oh, that means the world to me. Thank you so much for that comment. That, that really. Um, it's right here. So , I appreciate that and I'm glad to hear that that music is opening some doors. [00:57:45] Garrett: Thanks Judith. Thanks Tina. [00:57:51] Garrett: Yeah, I think, I think just this, this topic when I would love to hear, you know, at some point be so cool to see what everyone's just favorite music is and see what they, uh, really connect with. 'cause I, that, that makes me feel like just this real proof that music is this. Social glue, this invisible glue that we don't see. [00:58:16] Chucky: Oh, so also I wanted to tell everyone that, so there are three links that I placed in the chat. Um, they're a little dispersed, but, you know, these are like really, really easy ways to, they're like, they're all web browser based, so you can load them either on their phone, or like, you know, on your laptop or whatnot. [00:58:35] Chucky: Very well designed, super simple ways for people to just play. So like one, my favorite one is called jazz keys, which I believe is the second link. And like, every time you type a letter, it's just like playing different jazz chords and like inside playing melodies or when you can choose the kind of something you want. [00:58:53] Chucky: You can actually send like messages of these videos to your friends. So it's a fun way for people to start connecting, like the sound of something with the letter of something. And you can like kind of put it together and describe the feeling. [00:59:05] Garrett: And that's how to tap one is, is awesome too. There's a, our first guest, our first guest, actually, um, Eric, he's a, uh, SLP professor and video game. Producer and he plays bass in a punk rock band is awesome, but he shared that one and yeah, it's something really, really, uh, it's pretty special. [00:59:26] Chucky: Yeah. Padatap is amazing. And the sounds are incredible too. That's the, that's the best part about it too. [00:59:31] Garrett: Yeah. And, and Larry mentioned that, um, talking about MIT and melodic intonation therapy, he's working with an elderly woman who experienced a severe CVA and, uh, she couldn't imitate. Or spontaneously speak, but she's saying happy birthday, uh, with the words and melodies and yeah, how memorable and powerful. Um, do you know research of the social benefits of group people dancing, uh, to the same music at a venue together? Um, there, there was stuff I was hearing about. I know that there is research for sure. [01:00:06] Garrett: Um, if I find it, I'll, I'll do a little dive and, , I'll see if I can, Send it out. [01:00:12] Chucky: Oh, is this the one? Well, this is, this is not like someone who's like research in like the cognitive sense, but it's a, it's a really incredible book that talks about what dancing and like socially has meant over the years, right? [01:00:27] Chucky: Or there's a history of it. [01:00:30] Garrett: Yeah. And I mean, there's, there's a lot on, uh, research on social bonding and rhythmic movement together and trainment. And I know there's this book that I was also reading called, Oh, I was telling you about it, Chucky, the UC Berkeley professor, Dr. Keltner, it's just called, it's an amazing book. And one thing that they showed, you know, they're going over what are The things that we do as humans that reliably produce off two of the things. Well, one, so there's eight, that they went over and one was music and, and another one was collective movement. So those two things, you know, in awe releases this, you know, um, cocktail of neurochemicals that bonds people together. [01:01:09] Garrett: So I think there's, there's a ton of stuff of research on that. [01:01:16] Chucky: It's kind of an exciting time. There's like so much literature being written now on like, it's like the science of venturing into, you know, into the arenas that have been dominated by like religious thinking for so long. Right. It's like, it's kind of like the gate kept it for a long time, but like, finally we're seeing research that shows the Yeah. [01:01:37] Chucky: The overwhelming benefits of what it means and to all people right to regardless of what you think right. Yeah, I think beautiful time. I think, you know, I really, I'm like so happy to be alive and during this time because it's like I feel like we're living there around in a science in a way. [01:01:52] Garrett: Yeah. Yeah. It's both. Yeah. It's to me, it's simultaneously beautiful and scary. So there's true Pandora's box that's opening, but there's a lot, you're right. There's so much that's available for us, but yeah. I know that we're just a couple of minutes over. So, um, I just wanted to thank you, Chucky, man. It's so good to catch up, man. You're an inspiration. [01:02:15] Garrett: Where can people find you just really quickly? [01:02:17] Chucky: The place, I feel like currently , I'm most, I keep my Instagram most up to date of what's going on. So you can find me there. , in terms of email, if you have any questions or want to reach out, you can just email me directly on my personal and then I'd be happy to whatever it is you might need, like, More than happy to direct you anywhere. [01:02:38] Garrett: Thank you, Chucky. And thanks everyone. Um, so much. Thank you. And we look forward to seeing you again at another speech therapy, pd. com course. Thank you everyone. Take care. [01:02:51] Chucky: So good. So fun. Thank you . [01:02:52] Announcer: Thank you for joining us for today's course. To complete the course, you must log into your account and complete the quiz and the survey. 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