Ep 3 - Exploring Workplace Advocacy Trends in Speech-Language Pathology
[00:00:00] Announcer: Welcome to SLP Learning Series, a podcast series presented by SpeechTherapyPD. com. The SLP Learning Series explores various topics of speech language pathology. Each season dives deeper into a topic with a different host and guests who are leaders in the field. Some topics include stuttering, AAC, sports concussion, Teletherapy ethics and more.
[00:00:42] Each episode has an accompanying audio course on speech therapy pd.com and is available for 0.1 ASHA. CEUs now come along with us as we look closer into the many topics of speech language pathology.
[00:01:04] Stephanie Reed-Foti: Right. Hello everybody. And welcome. Welcome to our podcast mini series advocacy for the whole SLP presented by speech therapy PD. Thank you so much for joining us for episode number three, Exploring Workplace Trends in Speech Pathology in 2024. This episode is offered for 0. 1 ASHA CEUs. We are your hosts, Jessica Hunnemeder, And Stephanie Reed-Foti. We're both co owners of Speech Story Studios. And before we get started, I'd like to introduce you to one of my lovely co hosts, Ms. Jessica Hunnemeder. Some quick information about her. She holds her master's and her undergraduate degrees from Kean University, and she has a diverse background in early intervention, school based services, and subacute rehab.
[00:01:52] She currently focuses on evidence based practice therapy through in person and teletherapy methods. She's licensed in multiple states, Pennsylvania, California, Florida, Alaska, Hawaii, and Wyoming. Jessica emphasizes cultural sensitivity in her practice and has presented on advocacy teletherapy strategies, auditory processing disorders, and hearing screening in college students.
[00:02:17] Outside of work, she usually is exploring her current home base in Hawaii with her husband as a travel content creator. I don't love always talking about you. 
[00:02:28] Jessica Hunnemeder: I mean, we've known each other for a very long time at this point. So I, I really enjoy talking about you too. And in fact, I'm going to do so. So introducing Dr.
[00:02:39] Stephanie Reed-Foti, who is a New Jersey state licensed and ASHA certified speech language pathologist with a decade of experience. She earned her Bachelor of Arts, Masters of Arts and Doctorate in Speech Language Pathology from Kean University. I was just going to say from New Jersey.
[00:02:56] Stephanie Reed-Foti: In new Jersey, 
[00:03:00] Jessica Hunnemeder: yes, in New Jersey, Stephanie has extensive experience with children across various settings, specializing in stuttering, language disorders, auditory processing disorders, pragmatic language disorders, and alternative augmentative communication.
[00:03:14] She provides training for parents and educational staff and has worked with children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, apraxia of speech, cerebral palsy, down syndrome, and other conditions. It sounds like you work in a school. I know I said that last time, but you definitely work in a school. I gave it away.
[00:03:33] I don't know. I don't know. I'm not quite sure. 
[00:03:35] Stephanie Reed-Foti: There's something there. Like it's just, it seems so familiar, right? 
[00:03:38] Jessica Hunnemeder: Yeah, you just have to go in. So financial disclosures, financial disclosures. I am the owner of Pangaea Speech Therapy LLC, co owner of Speech Story Studios, and I received a speaker fee from SpeechTherapyPD. com. My non financial disclosure is I am an ASHA member and Hawaii Speech Language Hearing Association member. 
[00:03:58] Stephanie Reed-Foti: All right. And for my financial disclosures, I am also a co owner of Speech Stereo Studios and received a speaker's fee from Speech Therapy PD. And for my non financial disclosure, I am also an ASHA member and a New Jersey Speech Language Hearing Association member.
[00:04:15] Jessica Hunnemeder: Fabulous. 
[00:04:16] Okay. That's enough about us. Yeah. We have the coolest guest on with us today. I'm so, so excited to introduce Courtney Gebhart. She is so awesome. So I'm just going to go through and read a little bit about her. We'll go over some disclosures and then we'll finally let her chat. So Courtney Gebhart is the founder of Metamorphosis Therapy Group, Inc.
[00:04:40] She has grown the practice to serve pediatric clients with speech and occupational therapy needs, including early intervention and short and long term school contracting. She has more than 16 years of experience as a certified speech language pathologist, working in pediatrics, and extensive training in assessing and implementing assistive Technology and augmentative and alternative communication systems.
[00:05:05] She has worked with a variety of disorders, including, but not limited to autism, oral myofunctional disorders, dyslexia, speech, sound disorder, late talkers, and bilingual assessments. She serves her community as a part time adjunct lecturer at California State University, Fresno, where she teaches courses on language development and the education of exceptional children.
[00:05:29] Woo. That is a mouthful for sure. It sounds like you work in schools too, Courtney. I do. So financial disclosures for Courtney. She's the owner of Metamorphosis Therapy Group Inc, which is a for profit organization. She is a salaried staff of California State University, Fresno, and she received an honorarium from Speech Therapy PD for her podcast appearance.
[00:05:52] She doesn't have any relevant non financial relationships at this time. However, I am so excited to introduce you as a side note as well. I also work for Courtney. I am part of the meta therapy group. That's where I know her and I'm just. I'm like really enamored with all of the things that you're doing and you're like in everywhere and I'm kind of in everywhere too.
[00:06:17] So I think, I think that's why I'm like loving all of the things that you're doing because it kind of makes me feel like, yes, I'm in the right place. I'm doing the right thing. I don't need to stay in one spot. I can like travel around and do things. So the other thing too, It's you really like rally your staff every day.
[00:06:38] And I think it's just, it's just awesome to see it really is. So, I'm fangirling on you. 
[00:06:46] You're welcome. You're welcome. Welcome to our podcast. Yeah, Steph, take it away.
[00:06:52] Stephanie Reed-Foti: All right. So, let's get to it. So, after all nice introductions, we are here to talk about workplace advocacy. So, just as a recap, the last two weeks, we talked about the national level and the state level advocacy efforts and, you know, where SLP can go to find help, research questions, And now we're continuing down that little funnel, that little narrowing down to talk about trends in different workplaces and how to advocate in those different workplaces.
[00:07:23] So when we first start to talk about who we want to invite. So, you know, the first question we always like to ask our guests are, what is advocacy to you? So. It's a very wide open question, but I'd love to hear what your point of view is. 
[00:07:38] Courtney Gebhart: Yeah, great question. Advocacy to me is good communication, and it really boils down to that.
[00:07:44] Listening, as well as being able to communicate what it is that you desire. 
[00:07:49] Jessica Hunnemeder: Amazing. Amazing. I love it. 
[00:07:52] Stephanie Reed-Foti: No, I was going to jump into the next one of just what are some things you think SLPs can expect to find?
[00:07:58] in their workplace for support in their careers. 
[00:08:02] Courtney Gebhart: I think kind of going back to the advocacy question, I think it's really important for SLPs to ask good questions at the interview process. This is a really, this is really the only opportunity that you are going to get to be able to ask good questions.
[00:08:18] tough questions and really nothing is off the table. I think as SLPs, it's a female dominated field and we tend to shirk away from talking about money, but we have to, and we have to be comfortable with that. And I think there's some things that if there's open and good communication, that it's going to really help any potential heartaches down the road.
[00:08:41] If you realize that you don't get annual raises or you can't you know, get a raise every year, or there's no stipend after all, or this or this or that. So having good communication verbally, but also a written agreement to back that up is going to really help you understand all of the ins and outs.
[00:09:01] as you kind of go through your career. Also just as students, you know, this is also your time to ask those questions as students are in graduate school. And sometimes we don't ask questions because we're so used to being told, you know, what to do and that this person, you know, the professor is the expert, but we have to be comfortable with that.
[00:09:21] We have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable because those conversations are are really needed. And they're going to really just help us. You know, get to where we want to be in our careers and in our positions. 
[00:09:35] Jessica Hunnemeder: You hit on the two biggest things for me. One is making sure to ask the questions.
[00:09:42] And two is. Pay, like pay rates and that type of thing. I'm a huge, I'm a huge advocate for making sure that you're getting paid what you're worth. I don't believe in, in working for free. I don't believe in, you know, taking a rate that's below that of what I am able to provide with a master's degree that I worked really hard for.
[00:10:04] So, you know, coming from somebody who employs, how many employees do you have at this point? 
[00:10:08] Courtney Gebhart: We have 43 employees. 
[00:10:10] 30 something mid thirties for therapists and then the rest is my admin team. 
[00:10:15] Jessica Hunnemeder: Oh my gosh, amazing. And you started, so I guess I'm going to go back a little bit, a little bit here. You started the company in 2016.
[00:10:26] Courtney Gebhart: 2018. It was founded that first year. I did nothing with it. It was literally just getting all of the correct certificates, you know, getting insurance going. And I saw my first client in May of 2019 as a home based therapist. I traveled to his home to see him. 
[00:10:43] Jessica Hunnemeder: Oh my gosh. 
[00:10:45] And so, I mean, it's only five years later from 2019.
[00:10:48] Courtney Gebhart: Right. Yes. I, yeah, I've really, I've really grown it. And I, and I believe a lot of it is, I just want to help as many kids as I can. But I really was passionate about what I was creating. I've worked in a lot of different settings prior to my own private practice. And this was a way for me to really build my Therapy utopia, so to speak, so it's schools.
[00:11:12] I didn't like having to do yard ditty. I didn't like having to be boxed into minutes and that was tricky. So as a direct hire, you are and you know, skilled nurse. I worked in skilled nursing home. So I learned how to do all the coding and things like that. Also challenge has its challenges to. And then finally with private practice, I always saw myself being in private practice, of course, because I felt like I could, you know, make, make clinical decisions based off of what I wanted.
[00:11:39] And I was okay with sending clients to another therapist if I didn't feel like they were a good fit. And then with the school contracts, I'm able to advocate for correct workload. I'm sure we'll get into that. But that has been a huge change and I've worked in districts as a direct hire. Now I turn around and contract with them and it's Just a night and day difference.
[00:11:57] And I think a lot of it really does come down to advocating and telling people and being really precise and clear with what you want. 
[00:12:06] Jessica Hunnemeder: And just to add onto that, Courtney is so precise. She's so precise that it's like. There's no, there's no, not that there's no gray room. Cause I think there's gray room for every conversation really.
[00:12:19] Right. Like, I don't think that everything is black and white. There's definitely gray. But like, if we have a problem and I'm fangirling still, if we have a problem, if we have a question, I feel super comfortable talking with you and saying, Hey, This is too much or I don't know how I'm going to get this done.
[00:12:36] You come up with all of these really quick ideas. And, you know, even if it's like, okay, the school wants this, but that's not in the contract. Then you're like, Nope, that's not happening then. So I think the clarity to like being super clear is something that makes, makes being an advocate really, really great too.
[00:12:58] So, yeah, kudos to you again. Half of this episode is just going to be me fangirling. So just be prepared. 
[00:13:05] Courtney Gebhart: Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of that. You know, of course, you want a written contract to back up anything that's verbal because it helps both parties be able to go back and look at things because nobody can be expected to hold everything in their head.
[00:13:19] And I learned that as a mom, if it's not written down, it doesn't exist and a pregnancy brain is real. But you know, you have to have things written down and it really does protect both parties. So if there's something that was discussed, but it's not written you know, Ask about it. You know, we talked about this.
[00:13:36] Why isn't it in my, in my employment agreement? And then certain states are at will states. So, you can be let go for any reason or no reason at all. So every law is a little bit different in the States, but where I'm at in California, we are an at will employer. And so that's also stated in my agreement that the employee can leave the relationship or I can terminate the relationship at any time too.
[00:13:59] But having that written backup is. It's going to help you a lot in the long run. Agreed. 
[00:14:05] Stephanie Reed-Foti: And have you ever had to like modify it? Like if you, I know it seems like sometimes, obviously we all know IEPs change, laws change and just, is there an easier way to, or like you see like, Oh, I want to add something changing from there.
[00:14:21] Just like, this is not working for me. Like, is there like guidance of getting to that or changing that? 
[00:14:27] Courtney Gebhart: Certainly. So when, when you are wanting to change something in your employment agreement, and I use like my private practice, for example, because I have a lot more flexibility with being able to change employment agreements having a, you know, what's working for you and what's not working for you.
[00:14:44] It's having that open dialogue in that conversation. Sometimes therapists, you know, productivity is a seems like a dirty word. It's really it's really just a way that we're measuring how much billable time we're able to build for. So in private practice, I take insurance. The rates aren't great. It's pretty minimal profit margins.
[00:15:07] For those of you that think that private practice owners are swimming in the dough, we're not. We're hustling too. But knowing that information really helps us decide, you know, how much we're, we're paying our therapists or helps a good company decide, because of course we can't pay our therapists more than they're bringing in.
[00:15:25] But there's other incentives that potentially that employer could offer to you. Like maybe you have childcare that you need to flex your hours on. You need to Start early or leave early, or, you know, you can work a longer day on a different day. So being really upfront and asking about that information and having that dialogue is so important and do it before it becomes a problem.
[00:15:49] You don't want to be, you know, in HR's office and, you know, going through a write up situation or a written warning or a verbal warning before your boss is saying, you know, Hey, I noticed that you slipped out five minutes early because some employers. You know, we'll, we'll do that. So being communicative is certainly a huge part of advocacy.
[00:16:11] Jessica Hunnemeder: Definitely, definitely. And then in speaking, so your role to private practice, but then also at the university level, right? So in that, in that respect, I guess, how. You definitely advocate for your students. Can you talk a little bit about how you advocate for them? What it's like for them? I mean, you're seeing both like SLPs already in the field and then SLPs, like baby SLPs, right?
[00:16:38] Courtney Gebhart: So the college, the college professor gig. So I have undergraduate students and undergraduate is a whole different beast than graduate students. And I've, and I've worked with both. And the undergraduate students, they tend to be a little bit more rogue, you know, right now it's finals week. Things get interesting in finals week, but again, that's where your syllabus comes into play.
[00:17:05] And I really view my role at the university is I'm preparing these young professionals to have a job and have deadlines and not give Listen to excuses on why you can't get your, you know, homework in in time or why you miss the deadline or why you didn't show up or whatever. Because again, it's all in the syllabus and often if, if I'll have.
[00:17:31] A student asked me a question or how, you know, why is it like this? And I'll re sometimes I'll refer them back to their own paper and I'll say, well, I want you to read it and I want you to tell me what resources you use to determine your score. So I don't give people answers. I make them work for it a little bit.
[00:17:49] And I think that that's so important for young professionals because we are used to instant access with our phones and AI and. You know, all of those things, but really empowering them to think and think analytically and with problem solving skills is going, is going to just help us out in the long run with our future clinicians.
[00:18:11] So, it starts with the syllabus, again, a written document, and I refer back to it all the time. 
[00:18:17] Jessica Hunnemeder: Oh my gosh, that's such a good idea to refer back to the syllabus, really. 
[00:18:22] Stephanie Reed-Foti: Yeah, I mean, I guess your first contracts. 
[00:18:25] Courtney Gebhart: Exactly. It is. It's a contract. It's an agreement between myself and my students. And it's on file with the university.
[00:18:32] So if there's ever a question that comes in, and I've had to go through my own syllabus and look at it and say, Oh, I didn't write that. And, you know, maybe that's where that gray area falls because of course we have great areas. And you know, we have to, you know, we're all human to at the end of the day.
[00:18:47] And of course I might make some. You know, special exceptions, but that contract initially is what I'm really looking at and going back to. 
[00:18:57] Jessica Hunnemeder: That's a great idea. Remembering the contract and then the same thing to step in your position, right? Like looking at your school contract and making sure that everything, right?
[00:19:07] So if you're working in a school, you contract to even as an employee, right? So making sure that. All of those expectations are met and if they're not also making sure that you advocate for your needs. So what I'm hearing so far, communication is key and your documentation is also key. Love it. Love it.
[00:19:30] All right, Steph. Next question. 
[00:19:33] Stephanie Reed-Foti: All right, so I guess we'll tie it in. I feel like also hearing you talk, Courtney, it hit upon a lot of our key ideas, which I think a lot of people listening or have a lot of questions. The 1st thing we try to see, like, what the most common struggles SLPs have, and I know you've been in so many different work settings.
[00:19:49] We came up with 3, but I wanted to see if we hit those 3 and if there's more that you think of. So, of course, the 1st one we always hit is caseload versus workload. We'll get into it. I know it's going to be. Just a great conversation. Productivity. And I think last, I also just think of just understanding what we do.
[00:20:08] I know I even look at like working just again. I work in a school of all the people I work with and I just. I assume, oh, this is what you do. And I know I should take a step back and really know, well, what do you do? And like, just reflecting on it and like learning how we can work together more. So I want to see if there's any other ideas and we want to, we'll elaborate a bit.
[00:20:29] Into some ideas. 
[00:20:32] Courtney Gebhart: Yeah, I, I think you really hit on them. I think the, the biggest one that I hear a lot from many SLP's in many different settings is I'm taking work home or there's too much to do. And. I remember, and I think I, I kind of hacked it early on because when I was a beginning SLP, I was like, I'm not taking work home.
[00:20:55] That's my time. And, and it was, it, for me, it was really about creating systems that were sustainable. So I didn't have to work beyond my duty days. And, and I think that that's something that we really struggle with as, You know, kind of type a for the most part personalities. I consider myself like a type a a minus or type B plus.
[00:21:18] But that is that is really challenging for us to not do like this absolute perfect job, but in almost every single setting, not everything is going to be perfect all the time and that's okay. 
[00:21:31] Jessica Hunnemeder: Agreed. And that's why we get along because I would say I'm like B plus A minus for the most of the time. Do you agree, Steph?
[00:21:37] Is that me too? 
[00:21:40] Stephanie Reed-Foti: Yeah. I would say so. I agree. 
[00:21:43] Jessica Hunnemeder: That's his ultimate type A. She is ultimate type A to the fact, yes, you are. You get all of your projects done like three weeks beforehand. And I'm there like two minutes beforehand. Like, Oh, I got it. 
[00:21:55] Stephanie Reed-Foti: I just, I see my syllabus. I'm like, okay, I have 10 things that, you know, I have to do this.
[00:21:59] I'm like, I'm getting it done. I don't like to sit and wait around. Don't do well under pressure. So I like to get it done. That was type A plus, but I like to get things organized and just keep it done. But you know, I know I also like to keep things organized. So again, just going back to that, like caseload versus workload.
[00:22:20] What are some ideas of how you've advocated to Keep it focused. And also, like, we always say, like, we don't want to take work home, but like, you know, the back, I'm like, I know it has to get done. Okay. Like, how can I help myself not have to do that in the future? Or. Now I have to do it later, you know, another time.
[00:22:41] Courtney Gebhart: I think I think, you know, there's, we hear caseload versus workload a lot. And it really depends to, on the context that we're talking about. So, like in a school district, we, we see that a lot and we see a lot of people, you know, really wanting to advocate for that for their district. And the best way to do that for non speech people who are talking to districts.
[00:23:04] People is to put it into perspective for them. And I like to really think in terms of, you know, numbers and the numbers don't lie. So when I come to an admin and I say, well, you know, every kid that I tested this year, it took me 10 hours from start to finish. And I don't have, as you can see in my schedule I only have two hour.
[00:23:30] Chunks of time. And in addition to that, an IEP prep, an annual, takes this amount of time. So we can kind of do ourselves a favor by putting some numbers to that because our district people you know, they, they get hit with these kinds of, you know, Asks all the time. Well, I don't have time. We'll hire another person.
[00:23:51] So I really like to think of that in numbers because then you can really break it down for somebody by amount of weeks. And so, I mean, that's 1 thing, like, for those of you that are in a school setting, and they're and you're trying to advocate for a workload approach. Another way that I've seen that done is assigning numbers to specific types of students.
[00:24:11] So. you know, a, you know, if you use a rubric, like a one through four rubric, like a one is like your artic only kiddo that's on an IP, you know, and a four might be like that special needs kiddo that's in a self contained classroom that has a really needy parent or is highly litigious. So those kinds of things can really put a lot of different weight on your caseload as a school SLP that you don't have the ability to just.
[00:24:40] Say, I'm just not going to work with that student anymore because, you know, I just don't want to, well, we can't do that in the schools as we know but really in other settings too for that advocacy piece and that workload, you know, that workload versus caseload again, it comes down to numbers and doing a, being really honest with yourself and doing a time audit on yourself will also really help you see You know, what am I spending my time on?
[00:25:06] Because sometimes those answers, you may not like those answers and that's okay because you might realize that, you know, I just blew 30 minutes in the hallway talking with another therapist about a TV show. Well, that's not productive time, you know? And so I think we need to also be, be ready to embrace the honesty that's going to come out of that time audit and then really think, you know, what do you want to do with that, with that time instead.
[00:25:36] So that way you're not bringing your work home. 
[00:25:39] Jessica Hunnemeder: Nailed it. Nailed it. Because, and I would say that's probably one reason why I can't work fully in person because I am the person at the water jug who just, I can chat to anybody, up to a wall. My husband's like, I'm not coming into the grocery store with you because all you're going to do is talk to people.
[00:25:59] And, and this is after work, right? So like still talking. So, I think, I think you brought a point. Amazing points. And I think and we've talked about this too before in another episode about the caseload piece to go to ashes website. And I know this is going to give stuff some anxiety. She's already kind of like, head over here.
[00:26:22] They have a caseload calculator or workload calculator. It's really, and stuff is still shaking her head in the background. Thanks for listening. And I, I understand why it would give you anxiety. And the reason is, is because that there's a lot of boxes. There's a lot of things to click on, and then you're like, well, what am I spending my time on?
[00:26:44] Right? So it's really hard to kind of delineate. I use something called toggle because I am switching between so many different, like, workloads between different schools. So I toggle my time between okay. I'm at this school. I'm at this school. I'm at this school. I'm at this school. And that kind of helps me.
[00:27:00] And then also. You know, just punching in to your job, right? Like, thinking about a punch in but the, the. Having those numbers I think is key. So yeah, definitely key because I mean, we're supposed to be evidence based, right? So we need the evidence to show like, Hey, I can't do this. So I guess if we are continuing it down this way, if we find that our caseload or our workload is like way too much for us, you as an employer, Courtney, If somebody were to come up to you, how would somebody besides having the numbers, is there a way that somebody could advocate that you would be able to help them a little bit more?
[00:27:42] Yeah. Is there something that somebody could say and you're like, Oh, I can help you with this. Like, how would that look? 
[00:27:48] Courtney Gebhart: Yeah. I ask a lot of questions. So if staff come to me and they say, You know, I'm feeling really overwhelmed or, you know, whatever the case may be. I just start by asking questions, you know, well, how are you feeling about that?
[00:28:00] And then I'll look, I even get into the weeds. Let's look at your schedule. Tell me about this kid. Tell me about this kid. And. I'm looking for solutions. And I want them to find their own solutions too. And sometimes the reason why we feel overwhelmed, again, do your time audit. It could be because you have two really rough kids in a row.
[00:28:22] And maybe that day is just a really rough day because you're kind of anticipating all of those things because you know that it's going to be rough because you've got these two hard kids or these two rough groups or. You have this staff meeting that, you know, is really bothering you, or whatever the case may be you know, and I think we have to, I've learned this from my OTs, where we have kind of a sensory cup, and little things can really irritate us throughout the day, and, you know, we can kind of pay attention to, well, what's happening with my cup?
[00:28:55] You know, if things, if I'm having a rough morning and I get to work and then I snap at somebody it's because I'm snapping at them because of all of the other things that have already happened in my day. So I think coming to a supervisor with facts, again is going to really help your case and also coming with solutions.
[00:29:16] So I always ask my graduate students to do this when I work with them in clinic and a clinic setting. If they have an issue with how therapy is going, I'll ask them, well, what have you tried? What do you think the next steps are? Why do you think that that didn't work? Because again, you know, you finding out your own answers to your problems is going to be much more powerful than a supervisor figuring them out or anything else.
[00:29:41] And the same way, if maybe you have a supervisor who's not very helpful with solving problems asking them questions also feels non confrontational. How can I make this day a little bit easier for me? How can I shift my time around so that I'm able to, you know, do this sort of duty. You know, so coming in and asking those specific questions if you truly don't know the answer and getting them to help you a little bit can also be a great strategy.
[00:30:13] Jessica Hunnemeder: It's the moment too, where I'm going to like shrink Courtney and put her on my shoulder to remind me throughout the day, like, Hey, how did you feel about this? Right. To turn it into a therapy session. Cause I mean, it's great. It's really awesome. 
[00:30:27] Stephanie Reed-Foti: I love I'd love to ask because I just actually just came up today.
[00:30:31] We had, I had a department meeting and I always hear my supervisor in the back. He's not a speech therapist. I adore. I do love working, but always I hear him always saying the magic number is five. So, even in my, you know, ABA, you know, high profile parents You have, you can fit five in a group, and I'm like, no, how, but like, no, and it's like, but per the IEP, you can go up to five, so we're good, and it's just like, I feel like, I'm sure a lot of people can say, like, oh, I can hear that, I can, I can hear exactly the words saying, like, and as you being, I'm sure you've talked to administration, what would be a way to approach that?
[00:31:09] Like what facts could be used to help work with that? Or just, you know, cause I'm sure they're also going to have their facts with them and say, well, yeah, it's, it's here, it's in the IEP. So we're fine. I'm like, no, but I can't do it, you know? 
[00:31:22] Courtney Gebhart: So, I mean, again, coming back with, you know, real life scenarios.
[00:31:25] So maybe you're in a situation where your group size is really big you know, and really kind of taking it back to that school setting, we know as therapists, that large groups mean slower to minimal progress. You're not getting a lot of data and you can say that, you know, you're essentially not providing a legally defensive service to the student because you just don't have the data to support it.
[00:31:50] And I felt like this was a really big aha moment that we learned a lot as students. Therapists when things shifted to cove it at that time. I was a direct hire with a district and we switched our students to doing individual one on one meetings and some of them were as short as five minutes and these kids were getting the same amount of data as they would be getting in a group of three.
[00:32:14] In 30 minutes, and that to me was really big. And I thought, you know, we're taking this kid out of his classroom to be able to provide this service. So, you know, kind of thinking along, like, getting out of the box a little bit and thinking. You know, how can I make this service? How can I make my supervisor see that a group of five maybe isn't, isn't in the best interest of the student?
[00:32:40] And when you shift your thought process that way, and don't say that it's not in your best interest, because you're the employee, right? You're going to have to do what they say, no matter what. But when you shift it to making it about your patient or about your students, You're going to see a big difference in how that response is going to come off because all of a sudden now we want to collaborate that I just use this strategy for a student that the team was trying to delay an IEP on and push it to the next year and I, and I wanted it done because I want it, you know, done so that way I don't have to remember all of the details come August.
[00:33:22] But I used it as do you think this is the best route for your students and it really worked and I got what I wanted, which was a meeting the school year. 
[00:33:33] Stephanie Reed-Foti: I love hearing that. That's awesome. 
[00:33:36] Jessica Hunnemeder: And I love changing the perspective to from like me versus because that's what it should be. It should be for the patient or the client or the student.
[00:33:45] Right. Great question. I love that. I feel like, okay, so we hit the caseload, we hit the productivity, we hit the understanding what to do. How about we talk about if we, if we think we're not a good communicator in terms of like emails? I love writing emails personally. I like to like, communicate that way because then it's very succinct.
[00:34:11] It's written. It's, it's all there. How, if you feel like you're not good at writing emails, or if you feel like you're not very good at advocating for your needs, because we're saying, yes, you have to ask these questions, but if you're not sure what to even ask. Where can you go to kind of get some more information or what kind of kind of made you feel more comfortable being independent with asking those questions, would you say 
[00:34:36] Courtney Gebhart: I, so I kind of did some, you know, self.
[00:34:41] review of my own communication style. And what I really found is that and, and I think emails, number one, are not the best way to communicate. I'll just put that out there. They're not the best way because they can be really misconstrued. And same with text messages, right? So I've had a lot of messages go completely awry because of a text message or an email.
[00:35:06] I know that I prefer to communicate verbally, especially if maybe the stakes are high, because I can get a lot more out of that one on one verbal communication because I can gauge things better. I mean, us as SLPs, you know, we're, we're the communication experts, so that pragmatic language piece really does come into play, and you can use it to your advantage when you're communicating with your with your communication partner.
[00:35:33] So, you know, I can feel their intonation. I can see what their body language does. And I can control my responses a lot better because in an email, you're essentially tasked with laying your chips out on the table. And if you're a, if your communication partner, I keep wanting to say opponent because sometimes it is when we're advocating for ourselves.
[00:35:55] But. You know, when you're, when you're sending an email, you, you do not have the advantage of knowing when that person will respond. So sometimes emails you know, if, if they wait a long time to respond, they might be thinking about it and then they're going to put you in a weird spot. Do I do a follow up?
[00:36:13] You know, how do I negotiate this? So I really am very tactical with my responses that way. I don't like to have. I don't like to negotiate things in email at all ever. So, yeah. Mainly because not necessarily because it's a written, you know, dialogue of things, but but also because I think that you lose that human element.
[00:36:34] And when people put space in between you and answering your email, you kind of either a you lose momentum. Or you allow them to have extra time to really think about it and come up with a different solution. And I will use my email to my advantage when either I'm upset and I don't want to fire off a quick response.
[00:36:57] So I usually will put some space between myself and the response. And I also coach my staff to do this a lot too. If we get an upset parent that. Is calling us or they're, they've emailed us, you know, something I tell them don't respond today because right now the emotions are really high and we're not thinking with, you know, our, the correct part of her brain.
[00:37:20] We have to, you know, put some space in between that. So just kind of pay attention to how you are also as a communicator and as and that's going to really help you find your, you know, kind of find your stride and how do you want to communicate. But again, I really advise against email communication for any sort of negotiation or advocacy.
[00:37:41] I really much prefer a verbal or at least a phone call. I really like zoom. So even if they're not able to do a in person, I really try to do a zoom because I can get a lot more out of that. 
[00:37:55] Jessica Hunnemeder: So you're reading a lot through the, and I mean, it makes total sense as SLPs. Absolutely. It makes total sense.
[00:38:03] And the other thing, I mean, fangirl number seven, you check in with all of your employees every single week, every single week. If you can't make it on zoom, you will send an email, but you will always check and make sure, Hey, do you really need me? Right? Right. So I think having someone who is available.
[00:38:25] And who makes you important, and especially as the founder, like, not all companies are that way, right? I've worked with several companies where the founder became the founder, and then they're gone, they're off doing other things and they're not involved. You are still doing therapy, you are still present, you're still in the game so much so that, you know, all of your employees, you know, which days I'm working, you know, like, it's just.
[00:38:52] I think that's, that's something important to even when you're looking for positions, making sure that you're getting the right vibe from the companies that you're applying to. So I think zoom is, is amazing for sure, because you can get all of those, those like nonverbal physical cues from people during conversation as well.
[00:39:14] And I love the idea of not negotiating during email as well. Yeah. Awesome. 
[00:39:19] Courtney Gebhart: You have to lay all your chips on the table and then they know your next move. I've gotten, you know, I've learned just with my negotiation you know, with I've had, I've had clients who, for example, they couldn't pay their bills and didn't want to pay their bill and they owed us a lot of money.
[00:39:35] And I thought, you know, I could just run their credit card on file. I know it's good. Or I can, you know, and risk them being very upset, you know, word of mouth. You know, bad word of mouth is not great either. But I set up a, and this parent in particular really wanted to communicate through email. And I thought, nope, I have to get you to where I'm at my vantage point.
[00:39:59] And I refused to negotiate anything with this particular parent. And I, Set up a meeting where I could have a phone conversation with them. And at the end of that conversation, you know, I was, I was listening and sometimes we want to talk. We're the SLP. We want to talk, talk, talk. No, you have to listen.
[00:40:17] That's that other part of language. And, and kind of that sitting back and letting him tell his story and letting him air his frustrations, beating him where he's at. Oh yeah. That is really frustrating that Insurance did X, Y, and Z, you know, kind of commiserating a little bit with that individual too.
[00:40:35] Yes, I know that those caseloads are super high everywhere across the district. We're all feeling really stressed about that, you know, and then kind of launching into, you know, well, do you think that I could. If there's could we hire a sub and they could take 10 students off of my caseload, you know, and just kind of starting somewhere where you're asking, and maybe, maybe you really want 20 kids start with 30 and then negotiate.
[00:41:03] From there, you know, you know, and, and don't be afraid to kind of go for that pie in the sky offer. So, I mean, that's, that's all part of that negotiating. So you can kind of use that. So, instead of thinking negatively, like, oh, they're never going to take, you know, 10 kids off of my schedule. We'll ask for 20 and you might be surprised when they hit you with 10.
[00:41:24] Yes. Preach. I love that. 
[00:41:27] Stephanie Reed-Foti: I love it. And I love when you're like, you're very comfortable talking about like, Oh, ask those questions, or, you know, like, pay raise, go for it. Like, how did you get come? Like, I know a lot. I'm sure you work with a lot of students. Like, how do you do that? How do you get so comfortable asking that?
[00:41:45] Have you just found, like, there's certain phrases you use, or just a strategy, or just, I know, I hate when people say, you just need experience, it's time. And, you know, That is part of it. I always remember in grad school, like when a professional, oh, you'll know it in time. I'm like, I don't have time. I need to do this now.
[00:42:02] Right? How do you get. It's very strategies you've had to like get more comfortable with and just getting it out there because I know like that's definitely something like oh, I couldn't talk about that, you know, but he's so comfortable with that. 
[00:42:16] Courtney Gebhart: Yeah, it's so it's definitely a journey. So I didn't say it takes time, I said it's a journey.
[00:42:22] It's always a little bit of working on yourself. Right. So I've definitely read books. I have some of my favorites. I, I mean, If it's okay, I can, I can share one of them. Okay. So I really like Chris Voss. He's a former FBI negotiator and he has a book called never split the difference. I listened to that book 3 times when I had to go through a really big negotiation and.
[00:42:48] It worked to my advantage. And so I think just constantly looking for those skills to you know, help yourself in, in those communication opportunities. But also people wouldn't guess this about me, but I really am quite an introvert. I really am not, I know you wouldn't guess it, but but like, I really, Enjoy like, you know, if I don't want to go to a social event, like I kind of dig my heels in and I don't really want to go.
[00:43:17] And so for me, it was a shift of my mindset of thinking, you know, I don't really want to go to this, but what are some opportunities that are here for me? So as a business owner, there's always opportunities and it makes it more interesting for me now to go to different social events where I like, it's my husband's party and, you know, we're in complete.
[00:43:40] of work and I'll get to go to those and it's like, I'll kind of make it my goal, you know, you kind of have to have your own intrinsic goal. I'm going to meet somebody and I'm going to, you know, you know, find out if they have any kids that have had speech therapy. I don't know, you know, whatever it is. But you kind of have to trick yourself into it a little bit, you know, if you're the staff member that really, you know, just kind of wants to hide out in your closet and you know, at some School or whatever you know, go into the lunch room and be intentional.
[00:44:10] And that doesn't mean you have to eat your lunch awkwardly at the table while the second years are on the other side of the room. But just be intentional and go up to them and have a purpose. And the more you practice it. The more comfortable you're going to be, you know, so looking for those opportunities to embrace that uncomfortableness is going to help you get really comfortable with that communication.
[00:44:34] So we, we need to work on it ourselves too, especially if you've worked on things when they're easier, like going and telling a, a teacher, you know, oh, I, you know, I, I got to screen your student, but I don't think that they need therapy and you know that they're going to have a fit. Practice that conversation because you know that it's going to be an uncomfortable conversation, but at the end of the day, it's your professional judgment.
[00:44:58] Nobody can force you to put a kid on an IEP, right? Of course. But then those kinds of situations are going to lead up to even bigger events. So when you need to negotiate for a raise, or when your caseload has blossomed so much that you need a slipper or you need a part time therapist to help you out the more you practice, the more you're going to be game ready for the big one.
[00:45:18] Jessica Hunnemeder: I love that. My husband is a digital marketer, so I know all about Chris Voss and all about Russell Brunson and all about all these other guys. And there's, I think, That hits on a huge thing of going outside of the speech realm every once in a while and looking into, like, the mindset or looking into, you know, because we said we are mostly women right in this field looking at the financials, looking at other things, like, I, you know, when I think of when I first came out of school and I was like, oh, people do like, I don't know what business is.
[00:46:00] I don't know what that means. I just like talking and like kids and like that type of thing to me. Now, as I've grown right through little baby speech therapist to big girl speech therapist. There's other things out there that are super interesting. So, like, the pay shortages you know, advocacy, all of these things are also in other areas in the world.
[00:46:25] Right? So, there are other books, there are other things besides speech therapy, things that are out there that could help you kind of negotiate and learn how to negotiate. You know, I think I think using that as kind of the background is genius really to to think forward. 1 of the books that I've.
[00:46:45] Really recommended to everyone. I actually have it on my desk because I'm blessed with her. It's Rachel Rogers and it's, we should all be millionaires. Have you guys read that one? Oh my gosh. She's amazing. She's a lawyer. And she talks about how she went about to become a millionaire starting from like nothing to where she is now.
[00:47:10] She's super empowering, super great mindset. And you know, Reading this as a speech therapist for somebody who like, okay, I've worked a job where now I'm finally opening up my practice as well. Right? So. It's, it's just so endearing to hear other people in other places using really good strategies and resources.
[00:47:32] So. So definitely Chris boss, definitely Rachel Rogers definitely get out there and read other things is what I would suggest too. How about you, Steph? 
[00:47:42] Stephanie Reed-Foti: No, I agree with all those. I'm just curious. Is there any other resources that you've used to coordinate that you felt as helpful for you and, like, developing this? 
[00:47:51] Courtney Gebhart: I, I really like the, I really like the Chris Voss stuff, I like, it's a podcast too, so that's fun to listen to. But again, it's practicing it, so going out and looking for those opportunities, and you know, and also I, I find, Just kind of sitting back as an SLP and kind of watching communication and, you know, kind of trying some of his little strategies because it can be overwhelming, but being interested in that other person and building a relationship, because if you don't have a relationship your efforts aren't going to get you very far.
[00:48:27] So, I, I really see that a lot of things tend to be very transactional meaning, you know, what are you going to do for me? And I want more money and it's. It doesn't provide of, you know, you're not showing what's the value of me getting a race. You know, what can I bring to you as an agency by getting this race?
[00:48:49] Because that's the next question that me as an employer would potentially have, you know, well, what do I get with that? So. You know, there has to be, there has to kind of be that ebb and flow you know, and having that relationship first and foremost. And that's why I check in with my employees because I want to know how things are going.
[00:49:09] And if things aren't going well, I want to know now, not in four weeks when, you know, someone's like, Oh, she put in her resignation. Like, Oh no, what happened? Like we could have fixed some things, but. I think just practicing good communication as a whole is really helpful and getting, and getting us out of our little speech room closet.
[00:49:29] So getting out of that closet in the school you know, if you're in a acute care setting, you know, go to a different floor that you're not used to seeing, Oh, I have a speech therapist. What do you guys do around here? You know, and then, you know, just getting, getting in good communication with other people.
[00:49:46] So that way they see you as a value. You know, so that they want to keep you around and they'd like to pay you well too. 
[00:49:52] Jessica Hunnemeder: Yes, yes. We deserve it. 
[00:49:57] Stephanie Reed-Foti: . Absolutely. I love it. 
[00:49:59] Jessica Hunnemeder: I love that. Yeah. I think, I think the ideas and the strategies, the resources, I think that for me has taken some time to kind of get there.
[00:50:10] Would you say it's taken you some time to kind of grow and, and grow on a journey through that as well? 
[00:50:15] Courtney Gebhart: I think so. I realized that I kind of liked it and this is kind of what I do. I'm like, I really don't like this. I'm good, but I'm going to be really good at it. So, I, I kind of do that as a challenge to myself and I challenge everybody to do that and how I started with the biggest deal.
[00:50:32] example is teaching the R sound. I thought, oh man, I'm really bad at this, but I want to be really good at it. So if you can really pour yourself into learning one skill at a time you'll be really surprised at how far you come. And now they call me the R queen. I'm great at R. I love teaching, but I used to hate it.
[00:50:51] So, you know, you can, you can improve yourself. skill set. Just be open minded and be willing to accept feedback and be willing to practice and not do well either. And that's okay. 
[00:51:03] Stephanie Reed-Foti: So I heard you say to you like getting feedback. I know most of us, again, I think are B plus super type a and taking that feedback.
[00:51:13] I know not every supervisor is very poetic about it, or just like, they're not sure if it's like, they said, like, oh, you either you do a great job. We're like, Well, you could be doing this or even like getting outside feedback from like, you know, a private therapist or, you know, oh, my, oh, she said, we need to do this in speech.
[00:51:34] Like, there's always outsiders giving their input. I know, at least in New Jersey, we got a lot of input from behavior and it's like, Okay. Like how do I navigate that without it? Like, Oh, why am I so like, I'm not the best therapist or like, Oh, stay in your own lane. Don't come to me. You know, like, how is there like strategies you have for dealing with that?
[00:51:59] Courtney Gebhart: Yeah. Get them to talk about themselves. So people like to talk about themselves. Oh, tell me how you handle it. Yeah. And sit back. You don't even, you don't have to care, right? But if you get them to talk about themselves then they're going to feel really warm and fuzzy and they're going to like you.
[00:52:17] And really all they're doing is talking about themselves the whole time. And then you can kind of use that to kind of, we, you know, kind of navigate in like, yeah, that's always been a struggle for me. Do you have any tips for me? You know, we love to talk about ourselves. We love to you know, just as humans.
[00:52:33] To be able to be better than other people. So let them, it's okay. 
[00:52:41] Stephanie Reed-Foti: So just let it be. I think of a lot of my heavy hitting parents are just like, yeah, tell me more about them. Oh, great. 
[00:52:53] Courtney Gebhart: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, because you're not going to there's sometimes there's, there's just battles that you just don't want to fight, right?
[00:53:01] And we've all been in situations where the other person was going to be right, no matter how wrong they were. And it doesn't matter if they're a parent, an administrator you know, another professional but you have to almost let them win sometimes. And, and kind of be more tactful on your strategy.
[00:53:22] So just kind of think, okay, well, what else can I potentially get out of this situation? So, you know, I've been told, oh, well, my, when I was in the schools, oh, my private therapist says, says I do it like that. Oh, really? Well, tell me what is she working on? You know? And so it's like. I'm not going to do the same thing necessarily.
[00:53:38] But it, it just helps them feel like they've been validated and that goes back to your relationship. You're going to have a better time getting people to do things that you want to do when you have a relationship and they trust you. 
[00:53:52] Jessica Hunnemeder: My husband always says half of business is being cool. You have to be cool, right?
[00:53:59] If you're not cool, or you're not relatable, or you're not interested in the other person, then what what's the point? What are they going to get out of you? Right? Like, how what it's kind of like, it is kind of transactional in a way, but. you'll do something more for somebody that you like versus somebody that you don't like.
[00:54:20] Absolutely. So being agreeable, that's the thing for sure. And I have to say there was, this is when I was a baby SLP. And I love to share this story because it makes me It makes me furious, but I was in a school district in New Jersey and this, I, I was getting observed and the supervisor was the, I think it was the assistant superintendent.
[00:54:46] Maybe had a great session. This kid was up and down, we were dancing, we were getting lots of language and I had the multiply disabled children, right? So multiple disabilities. And we were just, it was so fun. It was so endearing. Like I thought I was doing great. I couldn't wait to hear what he had to say.
[00:55:04] And the only thing he said to me at the end of this observation was, why do you have a coffee cup on the table? Why do you have a coffee cup on the table? And I said to him, I don't even actually, I don't remember what I said to him. I remember calling Steph afterwards and just kind of losing my mind because some people feel that, you know, like he had nothing to say, but the coffee cup.
[00:55:30] Right. So to me, it just, I just, I don't know. I actually left that school right after that. Number of reasons, but I think, I think taking some of that into account of sometimes people aren't going to know and they're not going to be able to comment anyways. Right. And stuff stuff is huge into supervision.
[00:55:52] That's like, your big thing is supervision and making sure that it's good provision. So, yeah, it just, I don't know in that case, if I could go back 10 years from now and advocate for myself in a different way, I feel like I would have so much more to say. Versus what I probably said then, and I think about this story quite a lot about how about the coffee cup really, you know, and I'm sure everybody who's listening, they've also had similar situations to and, you know, making sure to.
[00:56:24] You know, advocate and learn and, and I think that was what we've brought up in the past couple of sessions as well as just continue to learn, continue to broaden the things that you do. I never in my right mind thought I would open or, you know, do the things that I'm doing now, truthfully, never, ever. So.
[00:56:46] I think, yeah, I'm just, I'm just excited to be where I am now versus the baby SLP. So thank you for, for teaching those, those little itty bitty babies, SLPs on advocating. Any other last things you want to add in about advocacy, anything else that we didn't touch on that you, you kind of want to 
[00:57:06] Courtney Gebhart: talk about.
[00:57:08] I just think that, you know, really going back to making sure that you completely understand everything in agreements is, is another thing.
[00:57:17] So if you don't understand a certain word look it up, you know, there's no shame in that game. So that is going to help you really fully understand that entire big picture. So. A big part of advocacy, and it's really kind of our job, too, is to tell people what we do and share with them. This is what I have to do.
[00:57:38] This is what I'm legally obligated to do. And that is going to help when they are understanding of the value that they, that you bring to their organization, their company you know, their school, then they are going to want to help support you even more. So it kind of goes beyond just get out of your office every once in a while and, you know, go say hi to a couple teachers or a couple nurses or whatever the case may be.
[00:58:06] Maybe but be present and, you know, really, you don't have to, you know, be the PTA president or anything like that. But, but just be, be visible every once in a while, and you can decide when that is choose those opportunities. 
[00:58:22] Jessica Hunnemeder: Agreed. Agreed. We've had some people comment. Saying that we need to ask questions.
[00:58:28] We need to bring curiosity. Good communication is key. So obviously good communication is key. Collaborate. Collaboration means non confrontation. Yes, collaboration means non confrontation. That is a huge thing. I think to consider collaboration means non confrontation. I can think of many times where, you know, Hey, you didn't put the dishes away.
[00:58:51] Like, if I had gone about it a different way, it might have worked better in my favor. Right. And then someone else said, verbal communication is the best way. Right? And I think, I think that's a key too, because like we said before, you can see all sorts of things non verbally that you don't see in a text message or an email.
[00:59:11] Right? Making sure that that's kind of top of mind is super important. Moving on from here, Cortner, is there anything that you guys are working on with Metta? Anything that you want to share that you guys have events going on or anything like that? 
[00:59:25] Courtney Gebhart: Yeah, so we consistently have additional events.
[00:59:29] Like we try to do quarterly events for our staff for staff development. We're heading into summer right now. You know, so summer programs tend to be really fun for our staff, but yeah, just generally we're growing and looking for more awesome members to join our virtual SLP team as well as our in person team and looking for some OTs and CODAs as well.
[00:59:52] So we're constantly looking. Looking for awesome talent that's looking for different opportunities with us. I love that. So where can people find you, Courtney? Yeah, so we're pretty active on our Instagram, so we go by meta for short. So Meta Therapy Group is our Instagram handle. And then our website also has some good links to it as well.
[01:00:15] So that's you know, meta therapy group.com. So all of those are great places to kind of catch up with us, watch for tips and tricks, watch for any sort of CEU events that we're hosting. So that's in person as well as virtual ones that we will have. I love it. And you guys were just at a rodeo too? Yes.
[01:00:34] So in my town Clovis Rodeo is really big. I'm an equestrian myself. So, super fun event. We got a lot of you know, great publicity with that. Super fun. The rodeo girls will bring around flags and so they had a metamorphosis flag and we got to be in the parade. So just a really fun time. We love supporting different community events and different community organizations. 
[01:00:59] Jessica Hunnemeder: Courtney, you're the best. I'm so obsessed. Thank you so much for, for agreeing to chat with us. Thank you everybody for listening. Yeah. And Steph, I'll let you take it away. 
[01:01:12] Stephanie Reed-Foti: All right. Thank you, Courtney. I hope you guys, all listeners, you got some great ideas and hope to add it to your journey as an SLP.
[01:01:21] And thank you all again for joining and hopefully we'll see you guys next week for episode number four. We're so excited. 
[01:01:29] All: Thank you. Bye.
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