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00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:03,000
最后庵野秀明在大家都排练好了之后
After everyone had finished rehearsing,

2
00:00:03,166 --> 00:00:04,866
他说了一句不对
Anno just said: no,

3
00:00:05,066 --> 00:00:06,400
还是别这么拍了
let's not shoot it this way.

4
00:00:07,166 --> 00:00:09,000
然后那些所有动作演员
Then all the stunt actors

5
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,800
练了好几个月都傻了
who'd rehearsed for months were dumbfounded —

6
00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:12,566
突然说不那么拍了吗
wait, we're not shooting it that way anymore?

7
00:00:12,766 --> 00:00:14,166
这个镜头拍完了
After this shot was finished,

8
00:00:14,333 --> 00:00:17,133
所有工作人员都是一脸茫然
all the staff just stood there blank-faced,

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00:00:17,133 --> 00:00:18,566
包括演员也是一脸茫然
the actors included.

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00:00:18,966 --> 00:00:20,666
这条能不能过 这条行不行
Is this take OK? Does it even work?

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我到底在拍什么
What am I filming?

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00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:24,133
就是我到底在拍什么
What am I actually filming?

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00:00:24,266 --> 00:00:25,066
呃啊——？？
what the--

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00:00:25,133 --> 00:00:27,166
这就是很难以让人理解的事情
It's honestly baffling.

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00:00:27,700 --> 00:00:29,566
庵野秀明就好像是一个
Anno comes across as someone who's like:

16
00:00:29,733 --> 00:00:31,466
我虽然不喜欢社会
"I don't like society,

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但是我知道社会这个东西很重要
but I know it matters,

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所以我试图去和社会和解
so I'll try to make peace with it.

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我理解了
I've come to understand it,

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00:00:37,733 --> 00:00:41,866
尊重了 认识了这些东西的美好之处
to respect it, to see what's good in it.

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从思想上我是明白的
Intellectually, I get it.

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但是如果你问我喜欢和不喜欢
But if you ask me whether I actually like it —

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我还是觉得好像不太喜欢
I still don't, not really."

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这个是我眼中的
That, to me, is what

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00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,533
庵野秀明传达出的东西
Hideaki Anno is really telling us.

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00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,333
欢迎你收听《非最终形态》
Welcome to Not Final Form Yet.

27
00:00:53,333 --> 00:00:54,666
这是一档献给变身的人的
This is a cross-dimensional humanities podcast

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跨次元人文播客
for everyone still transforming.

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在变身的不仅仅是
It's not just Super Saiyans,

30
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超级赛亚人魔法少女和假面骑士
magical girls, and Kamen Riders who transform —

31
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我们也都是还没有抵达最终形态的人
we haven't reached our final form yet either.

32
00:01:03,366 --> 00:01:04,866
我是主播后人类大白
I'm your host, Posthuman Dabai —

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00:01:04,933 --> 00:01:07,866
大概是读过最多《魔法少女小圆》学术研究的人
probably the person who's read the most scholarship on Puella Magi Madoka Magica.

34
00:01:07,933 --> 00:01:09,000
在这期节目里
In this episode,

35
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我和搭档特摄研究者風見97郎
my partner Kazami 97-rō, a tokusatsu researcher, and I

36
00:01:11,566 --> 00:01:13,966
一起聊一聊《新世纪福音战士》原作者
will talk about the creator of Neon Genesis Evangelion,

37
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动画导演庵野秀明
anime director Hideaki Anno,

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00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,266
所创作的3部特摄片
and the three tokusatsu films he made:

39
00:01:17,266 --> 00:01:20,400
《新·哥斯拉》《新·奥特曼》《新·假面骑士》
Shin Godzilla, Shin Ultraman, and Shin Kamen Rider —

40
00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:23,200
并且对怎么理解它们产生了很大的分歧
and we ended up deeply divided on how to understand them.

41
00:01:23,866 --> 00:01:25,533
風見97郎会从特摄史和
Kazami will draw on tokusatsu history

42
00:01:25,533 --> 00:01:27,300
电影工业的角度毫不留情地
and the film industry to mercilessly

43
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指出庵野秀明特摄的问题
point out the problems with Anno's tokusatsu,

44
00:01:29,166 --> 00:01:32,333
而我会从这些作品本身的情节和叙事出发
while I'll start from the films themselves — their plots and narratives —

45
00:01:32,333 --> 00:01:34,733
来挖掘出庵野秀明在表达的东西
to dig into what Anno is trying to say.

46
00:01:35,266 --> 00:01:37,366
最终我们也没有在什么样的人
In the end, we never did convince each other

47
00:01:37,366 --> 00:01:39,566
可以成为英雄这个话题上说服彼此
on the question of who gets to be a hero.

48
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,733
那究竟怎样才是正确理解庵野秀明特摄的方式
So what is the right way to understand Anno's tokusatsu?

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00:01:42,766 --> 00:01:45,000
就请你和我们一起加入这次对话吧
Come join the conversation and find out.

50
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:47,900
那今天就聊一聊
Today, let's talk about

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00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:49,933
庵野秀明监督他的特摄片
director Hideaki Anno's tokusatsu films.

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00:01:51,166 --> 00:01:54,133
庵野桑的这个特摄片
Anno-san's tokusatsu films...

53
00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,800
不是一个非常想说的话题
aren't really something I'm eager to get into.

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00:01:57,300 --> 00:01:59,966
为什么 我是挺期待这个话题的
Why? I've actually been looking forward to this,

55
00:02:00,533 --> 00:02:02,966
因为我其实对特摄片没有太多了解
because I honestly don't know much about tokusatsu.

56
00:02:02,966 --> 00:02:06,900
但是我确实恰好看过他的这些片
But I do happen to have seen these films of his.

57
00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:08,133
当然说是恰好
Though "happened to" isn't quite the word —

58
00:02:08,133 --> 00:02:10,533
一定程度上也是因为我比较好奇
partly it was because I was curious:

59
00:02:10,566 --> 00:02:12,333
作为一个特摄研究
from the perspective of a tokusatsu researcher —

60
00:02:12,333 --> 00:02:13,600
或者说特摄爱好者的角度
or let's say a tokusatsu fan —

61
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:14,566
你是怎么看
how do you see

62
00:02:14,933 --> 00:02:17,866
庵野秀明在特摄史 以及他的作品
Anno's place in tokusatsu history, and the relationship

63
00:02:17,866 --> 00:02:20,466
和特摄作品之间的关系的
between his films and tokusatsu itself?

64
00:02:20,466 --> 00:02:23,300
所以我也是其实一定程度上为了这个目的去看了一下
So to some extent, that's actually why I went and watched them.

65
00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:25,600
但是主要还是想听你来聊一聊
But mainly I want to hear it from you —

66
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:31,566
就是他的特摄作品是怎么被更加懂特摄的人看待
how his tokusatsu films are seen by people who really know tokusatsu.

67
00:02:32,133 --> 00:02:33,866
怎么说呢
Hmm, how should I put it...

68
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,300
我对于这些新的特摄
My acceptance of these new tokusatsu films

69
00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:37,300
接受度其实都不是很高
honestly isn't that high.

70
00:02:37,533 --> 00:02:39,533
大白现在已经在屏幕上偷偷笑了
Dabai's already laughing to himself on screen.

71
00:02:39,533 --> 00:02:40,066
怎么说呢
How should I put it —

72
00:02:40,066 --> 00:02:41,333
庵野秀明那几部片子
when it comes to Anno's films,

73
00:02:41,333 --> 00:02:42,266
笑得并不偷偷
your laugh isn't so secret, is it.

74
00:02:43,133 --> 00:02:43,933
并不偷偷
Not secret at all.

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00:02:44,466 --> 00:02:46,400
尤其是庵野秀明拍完的
Especially after Anno finished

76
00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,533
那个《新世纪福音战士Q》之后
Evangelion: 3.0 You Can (Not) Redo,

77
00:02:48,966 --> 00:02:51,733
几年 大概是12年还是13年
the Q film — 2012, or was it 2013 —

78
00:02:51,733 --> 00:02:53,533
反正就是几年之后吧
anyway, a few years later,

79
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他就开始搞那个《新·哥斯拉》
he started working on Shin Godzilla.

80
00:02:57,566 --> 00:02:59,866
《新·哥斯拉》是东宝的片子嘛
Shin Godzilla is a Toho production,

81
00:02:59,866 --> 00:03:00,666
东宝的IP
a Toho IP,

82
00:03:01,066 --> 00:03:04,966
然后当年是取得了82亿多的票房
and it grossed over 8.2 billion yen that year.

83
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,266
就在日本的真人电影史上
In the history of Japanese live-action film,

84
00:03:07,266 --> 00:03:10,366
82亿已经是相当高的一个水平了
8.2 billion is already a remarkably high mark.

85
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,133
再往前倒的话
Going further back,

86
00:03:13,133 --> 00:03:16,400
可能能跟那个匹敌的就是
maybe the only ones in that league are

87
00:03:16,466 --> 00:03:19,100
跳跃大搜查线的第二部电影版
the second Bayside Shakedown movie —

88
00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:20,966
那个《封锁彩虹桥》
Save the Rainbow Bridge! —

89
00:03:21,266 --> 00:03:23,666
然后还有那个《南极物语》这些
and Antarctica —

90
00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,933
超大作级别的才能达到这个
only mega-blockbusters of that class

91
00:03:26,933 --> 00:03:29,400
大几十亿的票房 在日本本土
hit those multi-billion-yen numbers in Japan.

92
00:03:29,766 --> 00:03:33,266
然后后来就是《新世纪福音战士终》嘛
Then came Evangelion: 3.0+1.0 Thrice Upon a Time —

93
00:03:33,266 --> 00:03:34,066
对吧
right?

94
00:03:34,300 --> 00:03:37,266
《终》一下把庵野秀明
3.0+1.0 took Anno's reputation

95
00:03:37,533 --> 00:03:39,700
作为导演的整体知名度
as a director —

96
00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:43,266
以及怎么说
and, how to put it,

97
00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,133
他在二次元特摄这个整体
the whole Anno brand across

98
00:03:48,133 --> 00:03:50,600
板块里的这块招牌
the anime and tokusatsu scene —

99
00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,866
抬到了一个更高的高度
and lifted it to a whole new level.

100
00:03:53,066 --> 00:03:55,966
因为当时EVA这个《终》
Because at the time, 3.0+1.0

101
00:03:56,700 --> 00:03:59,600
已经达到了一种社会层面的热度
had reached a society-wide level of buzz —

102
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:00,966
不仅仅是二次元
not just among anime fans,

103
00:04:01,266 --> 00:04:02,733
当时日本整体的
but Japan as a whole,

104
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:04,533
在一个社会的范围内
right across society,

105
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,966
都对于这个《终》的讨论度很高
was talking about it.

106
00:04:07,766 --> 00:04:10,266
《终》的票房我记得有100多亿日元吧
Its box office was over 10 billion yen, I think.

107
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:11,400
多少来着
How much was it again?

108
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:12,333
我不太记得了
I don't remember exactly —

109
00:04:12,333 --> 00:04:13,733
反正很高很高
anyway, really high.

110
00:04:14,066 --> 00:04:17,533
然后接下来就是《新·奥特曼》
Then next was Shin Ultraman.

111
00:04:17,900 --> 00:04:20,000
因为他是庵野秀明脚本
It was written by Anno,

112
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,200
然后樋口真嗣
and Shinji Higuchi —

113
00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,066
就是那个真嗣君嘛
Shinji-kun, you know —

114
00:04:23,066 --> 00:04:23,866
樋口真嗣
Shinji Higuchi,

115
00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:26,200
他是负责导演的工作的
he handled the directing.

116
00:04:26,866 --> 00:04:28,733
到了新假面骑士的时候
When it came to Shin Kamen Rider,

117
00:04:28,733 --> 00:04:33,500
就是庵野秀明自己脚本兼导演
Anno both wrote and directed it himself.

118
00:04:33,566 --> 00:04:36,500
这样的一个方式进行制作的
That was the setup.

119
00:04:36,933 --> 00:04:37,366
怎么说呢
How should I put it —

120
00:04:37,366 --> 00:04:38,466
这两部作品
these two —

121
00:04:38,466 --> 00:04:40,200
新假面骑士和新奥特曼
Shin Kamen Rider and Shin Ultraman —

122
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,100
它们两个都有一个共通的问题
share one common problem.

123
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,300
就是他从原作之中
They take the original works

124
00:04:45,900 --> 00:04:47,100
截取了一部分
and pull out pieces of them —

125
00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:52,766
就是几集名场面一样的角色和故事
a few episodes, their iconic-moment characters and storylines —

126
00:04:53,066 --> 00:04:56,066
然后重新对这个剧集进行演绎
and then re-stage them,

127
00:04:56,066 --> 00:04:58,866
然后人物的造型更新
update the character designs,

128
00:04:59,466 --> 00:05:02,666
把几集没有关系的故事
and fold several unrelated episodes

129
00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:04,966
融到了一部电影里边
into a single film.

130
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,133
也就是说它整体的故事都是一段一段的
So the whole thing plays out in disconnected fragments,

131
00:05:10,133 --> 00:05:13,866
没有那种所谓电影的起承转合
without the setup-and-payoff structure a film should have —

132
00:05:14,066 --> 00:05:15,966
那种一整部的连续感
that whole-movie sense of continuity.

133
00:05:16,166 --> 00:05:18,066
这是一个很大的问题
That's a serious problem.

134
00:05:18,566 --> 00:05:20,533
以奥特曼这部片子为例子吧
Take Shin Ultraman as an example.

135
00:05:20,700 --> 00:05:25,400
他就是把一开始奥特曼来地球出场的故事
It takes the opening story of Ultraman arriving on Earth,

136
00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,933
还有后面几集内隆嘎 第一只那个会爬的怪兽
then later episodes — Neronga, the first crawling kaiju —

137
00:05:30,133 --> 00:05:32,900
然后后面那个扎拉布星人
then the alien Zarab,

138
00:05:32,966 --> 00:05:34,200
然后美菲拉斯星人
then the alien Mefilas —

139
00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,366
这几个没有任何关系的故事
all these unrelated stories,

140
00:05:36,733 --> 00:05:39,000
全部硬揉到了一个电影里边
all crammed into one film.

141
00:05:39,266 --> 00:05:42,300
就是对奥特曼这个IP熟悉的粉丝来说
For fans who know the Ultraman IP well,

142
00:05:42,366 --> 00:05:49,166
我能在一次电影里头看到很多原来很经典的怪兽登场
you get to see so many classic old kaiju show up in a single film.

143
00:05:49,166 --> 00:05:52,866
但是对于这个IP不怎么熟悉的观众而言
But for viewers who don't know the IP well,

144
00:05:52,966 --> 00:05:56,533
就是完全没有任何逻辑联系的几个段落
they're just a handful of segments with no logical connection,

145
00:05:56,933 --> 00:05:58,966
生拼硬凑成了一部电影
crudely stitched into one film.

146
00:05:59,300 --> 00:06:03,366
庵野秀明把自己觉得好看觉得爽的点揉成了这么一部电影
Anno just mashed together whatever bits he personally found cool and satisfying.

147
00:06:03,866 --> 00:06:05,466
怎么说呢
How should I put it —

148
00:06:05,466 --> 00:06:08,533
我同时也是这个电影的爱好者
I'm a fan of film,

149
00:06:08,533 --> 00:06:09,933
同时也是特摄的爱好者
and a fan of tokusatsu, both.

150
00:06:10,333 --> 00:06:11,700
从特摄爱好者来说
As a tokusatsu fan,

151
00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:14,366
我觉得我看爽了这些东西
I had a great time with all this —

152
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,300
我原来喜欢的经典东西被重新翻拍制作了
the classic stuff I loved got remade and put back on screen.

153
00:06:18,366 --> 00:06:21,133
但是从电影粉丝角度来说
But from a film fan's perspective,

154
00:06:21,366 --> 00:06:23,933
它很难称之为一部合格的电影
it's hard to call it a competent film.

155
00:06:24,533 --> 00:06:27,400
我觉得《新·奥特曼》和《新·假面骑士》
I think Shin Ultraman and Shin Kamen Rider —

156
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,300
这两部片我看下来的感觉是
my impression after watching these two —

157
00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:32,933
其实里面拼凑的感觉比较强
is that there's a strong sense of patchwork,

158
00:06:32,933 --> 00:06:34,066
比较支离破碎
fairly fragmented.

159
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,866
但我其实不觉得这里面完全没有主线
But I don't quite agree that there's no through-line at all.

160
00:06:38,866 --> 00:06:43,800
反而能看到庵野秀明有很清晰的想要表达的东西
On the contrary, you can see Anno clearly has something he wants to say.

161
00:06:43,900 --> 00:06:45,266
只不过他表达的东西
It's just that what he's expressing —

162
00:06:45,333 --> 00:06:46,900
这个手法好与不好
whether the method works or not,

163
00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:48,666
或者说他表达那个东西本身
or whether what he's expressing is itself compelling —

164
00:06:49,166 --> 00:06:50,066
是不是精彩
or whether it's actually any good —

165
00:06:50,066 --> 00:06:52,100
我觉得像你说的
I think, like you said,

166
00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:55,500
可能是不是那么尽如人意的
maybe it doesn't quite land.

167
00:06:55,533 --> 00:06:56,866
这个是我的一个观点
That's my view on it.

168
00:06:56,866 --> 00:07:01,666
所以其实可能在这点上我们就已经有一些不同的意见了
So maybe this is where we already start to differ.

169
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:03,000
对
Right.

170
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怎么说呢
How should I put it —

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庵野秀明最大的问题就凸显在《新·假面骑士》这部片子上了
Anno's biggest problem really shows up in Shin Kamen Rider.

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刚才一直以奥特曼来说的
We've been talking about Ultraman up to now,

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现在就稍微说一下《新·假面骑士》这部片子
so now let's turn to Shin Kamen Rider.

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庵野秀明在之前的纪录片里曾经说过
Anno once said in an earlier documentary that

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就是他把他自己一切想做的东西都放在EVA这部片子里边了
he'd already poured everything he wanted to do into Evangelion.

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即使后面再做一些新的题材
Even if he took on new material later,

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可能也只不过是对自己EVA的一种重新构造
it would just be a reworking of his own Evangelion,

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也抛弃不了EVA的影子
he could never escape its shadow.

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这个很像当年宫崎骏对他的一个评价
This is a lot like what Hayao Miyazaki once said about him.

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对
Right.

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宫崎骏对庵野秀明应该是
Miyazaki said this about Anno —

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差不多我记得是上世纪末还是本世纪初的时候
around the turn of the century, if I remember right —

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他有一次大概说过的一句话
he said something to this effect:

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就是说EVA对于庵野秀明来说 基本上只是证明了（这个作品）
that with a film as honest as Evangelion, Anno ended up proving

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比较空虚
that there was nothing there.

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大概是这么一个意思
or something to that effect.

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然后说除了EVA之外
And beyond Evangelion, he said,

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庵野秀明好像这么多年也没拍出点什么别的
Anno hadn't really made anything else in all these years —

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大概是有这么一个意思
that was the gist of it.

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对
Right.

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就是稍微有这种感觉
Yeah, something like that.

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怎么说呢
How should I put it —

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其实庵野秀明在这部片子之后
Actually, after this film, Anno —

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在他自己的事后谈里头说
in his own later remarks — said

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00:08:15,733 --> 00:08:18,266
他原本是更喜欢奥特曼的
that he'd originally liked Ultraman more,

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但是在真正着手制作《新·假面骑士》之后发现
but once he actually started making Shin Kamen Rider, he realized —

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原来我是更喜欢假面骑士
oh, I actually like Kamen Rider more.

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00:08:23,666 --> 00:08:24,800
但是怎么说
But how do I put this —

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他的这种喜欢
the way he "likes" it,

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以我这个特摄粉丝的角度来说
from my perspective as a tokusatsu fan,

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00:08:29,933 --> 00:08:31,700
真的是我感觉是一种灾难
it honestly feels like a disaster.

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《新·假面骑士》这个片子它的制作经费大概是10亿日元左右
Shin Kamen Rider's production budget was around 1 billion yen.

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然后最后因为人气实在是不行
But in the end, because it just wasn't popular,

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票房只收了20多亿
the box office only pulled in a bit over 2 billion.

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以传统的电影三倍论来说的话
By the traditional "three-times rule" for films,

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票房单纯是完全没有回本的
it simply never made its money back.

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因为更多路人观众 或者说更多粉丝
Because most casual viewers, and a lot of fans too,

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对于庵野秀明这种新的重置是完全不买账的态度
simply didn't buy into Anno's kind of reboot.

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00:09:01,166 --> 00:09:04,166
电影上映的第一天
On the film's opening day,

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我就去看了
I went to see it.

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然后整个中文互联网基本上
And across the Chinese-language internet,

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我大概是当时第一个直接说
I was pretty much the first to come out and say —

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00:09:12,533 --> 00:09:15,266
这部片子完全就是一个烂片
this film is just a total mess,

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就是完全看不下这种烂片
the kind you just can't sit through.

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当时很多特摄粉丝还是
Back then, a lot of tokusatsu fans

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00:09:20,266 --> 00:09:21,766
一种diss我的态度
took a dismissive attitude toward me —

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00:09:21,766 --> 00:09:24,900
你这个没有看懂庵野秀明什么什么的
"you just don't get Anno," and so on.

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00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:25,800
但是真的
But honestly —

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你再让我回想一遍 我只觉得回忆这部片子都很痛苦
if I make myself go back over it, even just recalling this film is painful.

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有这么痛苦吗
Is it really that bad?

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00:09:31,866 --> 00:09:32,733
真的很痛苦
Truly painful.

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就是假面骑士这个题材
The Kamen Rider franchise —

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00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,000
它原本是有电视剧和漫画
it originally had a TV series and a manga,

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00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,100
再加上原来也重置过
and it's been rebooted before too —

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00:09:40,100 --> 00:09:41,766
就是所谓的新世纪新版
the so-called Heisei-era revivals —

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00:09:42,066 --> 00:09:43,900
它都有不同的设定
each with its own take.

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00:09:43,966 --> 00:09:48,566
但是它从来没有过 就是说主角本乡猛是一个
But never once has the protagonist Hongō Takeshi been

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软弱、自闭这样的一种性格
a weak, withdrawn character.

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反而以前包括原著漫画版
On the contrary, in the original manga

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还有那个原著的TV 本乡猛都是一个优秀的好青年
and the original TV series, Hongō Takeshi was an outstanding young man —

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智商高达IQ600左右这种
with an IQ of around 600 —

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00:10:03,333 --> 00:10:05,366
类似于高大全一样的人设吧
basically a flawless, larger-than-life hero.

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00:10:05,766 --> 00:10:09,266
他从没有过把这个角色塑造成一种软弱
The character had never been written as weak,

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然后怕事
timid,

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00:10:10,333 --> 00:10:11,300
以及内向的性格
and inward.

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00:10:11,733 --> 00:10:17,400
他多少是有把那种EVA里真嗣的性格
He did carry some of Shinji Ikari's personality from Evangelion

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带入到了本乡猛这个角色之中
into the character of Hongō Takeshi.

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00:10:19,366 --> 00:10:23,466
对于原本的假面骑士观众粉丝来说
For longtime Kamen Rider fans,

239
00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:25,966
不是一个很容易接受的事情
this wasn't easy to accept.

240
00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:28,500
然后剪辑方面
Then there's the editing.

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00:10:28,666 --> 00:10:33,066
他一下用了好几十台iPhone去拍摄镜头
He shot with dozens of iPhones at once,

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导致他后期剪辑的时候
which meant that in post,

243
00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:39,466
整体画面 因为iPhone的拍摄是有上限的
because there's a ceiling on what iPhone footage can do,

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00:10:39,466 --> 00:10:43,966
所以整体画面的色彩、清晰度什么的
the overall color and sharpness of the image

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00:10:44,133 --> 00:10:46,700
整体是一个极其混乱的剪辑状态
ended up in an extremely messy state.

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00:10:47,166 --> 00:10:50,866
就是很难说 如果它是一个实验性电影的话
Now, if this were an experimental film,

247
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我觉得这种玩法是可以的
I'd say this approach is fine.

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00:10:52,933 --> 00:10:54,366
但是它是一个商业电影
But it's a commercial film —

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要在全国几百个大荧幕上映的
one meant to open on hundreds of big screens nationwide —

250
00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:00,000
它有点玩得太过火了
and here he pushed it too far.

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00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,000
对 我觉得你刚才说的这个点我是比较同意的
Right, I mostly agree with the point you just made.

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00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:06,866
他这个片子其实让我当时最痛苦的一点
The thing that pained me most about this film —

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00:11:06,866 --> 00:11:09,366
因为新奥特曼上映的时候
because when Shin Ultraman came out,

254
00:11:09,366 --> 00:11:10,500
我正好当时在日本
I happened to be in Japan,

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00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:12,533
然后我就去现场
so I went in person,

256
00:11:12,533 --> 00:11:14,500
应该也是首映当天我就去看了
on opening day, I'm pretty sure,

257
00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:15,900
然后看的IMAX版
and I saw the IMAX version.

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00:11:15,966 --> 00:11:17,500
我看得极其痛苦
It was excruciating to watch.

259
00:11:17,933 --> 00:11:20,166
为了录咱们这个节目
For this episode of the podcast,

260
00:11:20,166 --> 00:11:23,100
我又去回看了一遍这个片子
I went back and rewatched it —

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然后是在小屏幕上 就拿电脑看的嘛
this time on a small screen, just on my laptop.

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00:11:26,133 --> 00:11:29,666
然后其实我觉得这个片子给我的观感要好了不少
And honestly, it came across a lot better that way.

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00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,533
所以我觉得其实一定程度上
So to some degree,

264
00:11:33,133 --> 00:11:38,000
它作为一个电影本身的呈现方式是它的一个问题
part of the problem is how the film presents itself,

265
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,666
就是抛开纯内容的层面
setting aside the content itself.

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但是像你刚才说的
But like you just said,

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00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:43,533
毕竟它作为一个商业片子
after all, as a commercial film,

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00:11:43,533 --> 00:11:47,966
它不是一个个人性质或实验性质的影片
it isn't a personal or experimental piece.

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庵野秀明自己在访谈里都说过
Anno said so himself in an interview:

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在商业片里 他应该是以帮助投资人回本作为第一义务
in a commercial film, his first duty is to help investors make their money back.

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00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:58,933
这个是没什么可说的
there's no arguing with that —

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他自己的一个原话
those are his own words.

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00:12:00,566 --> 00:12:02,566
但是显然我觉得他这个片子
But clearly, I think the film itself

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00:12:02,566 --> 00:12:07,266
本身并没有能够达到他已经认识到的这样的一个目的
failed to reach the very goal he himself had recognized.

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所以我们甚至不能说他对自己商业片导演的使命没有自觉
So we can't even say he was unaware of his duty as a commercial director —

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00:12:12,333 --> 00:12:14,766
而是说他明知这样的一个使命
rather, he knew that duty full well,

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00:12:14,766 --> 00:12:16,333
却仍然呈现出了一个
and yet still delivered something

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00:12:16,333 --> 00:12:21,133
其实我觉得并不适合IMAX院线的这样的一种
that, to me, really doesn't suit an IMAX release —

279
00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:23,200
电影质感吧 至少说
that kind of cinematic texture. At least,

280
00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:26,533
《新·假面骑士》我就没有在大荧幕上看过了
I never did see Shin Kamen Rider on the big screen —

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00:12:26,533 --> 00:12:28,933
但是我可以想象它的
but I can imagine

282
00:12:28,933 --> 00:12:33,733
观感应该是比新奥特曼还要更加糟糕的
the experience must have been even worse than Shin Ultraman's.

283
00:12:33,733 --> 00:12:39,766
对 因为之前电影上映之后 NHK也同步公开了
Right — after the film opened, NHK also released

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00:12:39,766 --> 00:12:44,933
《新·假面骑士》这部电影的幕后制作纪录片
a behind-the-scenes documentary on Shin Kamen Rider —

285
00:12:45,766 --> 00:12:47,600
让人看了只能说很无语
and it just leaves you speechless.

286
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,066
就是无论从粉丝的角度 还是从普通观众的角度来说
Whether from a fan's angle or an ordinary viewer's,

287
00:12:52,066 --> 00:12:54,666
都是对庵野秀明赤裸裸的一个揭露
it's a raw exposé of Anno —

288
00:12:54,666 --> 00:12:55,733
一种diss吧
basically a takedown.

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00:12:56,466 --> 00:13:01,333
就是他在《新·假面骑士》制作的时候
During the making of Shin Kamen Rider,

290
00:13:01,766 --> 00:13:03,333
把演员召集起来
he gathered the actors and said:

291
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:09,200
我只不过是一个引导你们去塑造角色的角色
"I'm just here to guide you in shaping your characters.

292
00:13:09,933 --> 00:13:11,400
我身为导演的职责是这个
That's my job as director,

293
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,700
而不是告诉你们该怎么演戏
not to tell you how to act."

294
00:13:13,933 --> 00:13:22,533
他把这个角色的塑造 以及对角色理解这方面所有的责任
He dumped all the responsibility for building the character and understanding it —

295
00:13:22,733 --> 00:13:26,133
或者说作为一个电影导演该去做的事情
everything a film director ought to do —

296
00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:27,766
全部抛给了演员
entirely onto the actors.

297
00:13:28,133 --> 00:13:30,866
我说这是一个我不太能理解的一种想法
Honestly, that's a mindset I have trouble understanding.

298
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:35,566
一般就是目前为止我见过的这种电影导演 或者说
As a rule, among the film directors I've come across so far,

299
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,733
塑造方式 很少有完全把一个科幻
or ways of shaping a work — very few would take a sci-fi

300
00:13:40,766 --> 00:13:42,533
一个全新创作的题材
or wholly original material —

301
00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:43,666
虽然有原作
there is a source work, yes,

302
00:13:43,666 --> 00:13:46,066
但是内容基本上全新创作的一个题材
but the content is essentially all-new —

303
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,966
所有的角色理解和刻画都交给演员
and hand the entire understanding and portrayal of the characters

304
00:13:48,966 --> 00:13:51,000
抛给演员去解决这个事情
over to the actors to figure out.

305
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000
我觉得这是我不太能理解的一种玩法
To me, that's a hard approach to wrap my head around.

306
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:54,900
好吧
Anyway.

307
00:13:55,566 --> 00:13:56,733
是是是 我同意
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

308
00:13:56,733 --> 00:14:00,133
我觉得有点强人所难了
I do think it asks a bit too much of them.

309
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,933
特别是新假面骑士的那个纪录片里 你刚才提到的
Especially in that Shin Kamen Rider documentary you mentioned,

310
00:14:04,366 --> 00:14:07,800
我印象中有两个点特别深刻吧
two things really stuck with me.

311
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:14,166
一个是他最开始坚持让扮演本乡猛的男主角
First, he initially insisted that the lead actor playing Hongō Takeshi

312
00:14:14,166 --> 00:14:19,866
池松壮亮这个主演
— that's Ikematsu Sōsuke —

313
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,266
亲自去参与一些打戏
take part in some of the fight scenes himself.

314
00:14:23,266 --> 00:14:26,100
然后因为很传统的意义上来讲
Now, traditionally speaking,

315
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:31,933
一般动作的部分是交给特技演员或者叫替身来完成的嘛
the action scenes are usually left to stunt performers or doubles.

316
00:14:31,933 --> 00:14:34,066
那庵野秀明首先提出了一个要求
But Anno's first demand was

317
00:14:34,066 --> 00:14:40,400
就是希望池松壮亮自己去扮演假面骑士打斗的部分
that Ikematsu himself perform the Kamen Rider fight scenes.

318
00:14:40,733 --> 00:14:41,966
然后也怎么讲
And then, well —

319
00:14:41,966 --> 00:14:43,666
毫不意外地出意外了
quite unsurprisingly, an accident happened.

320
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,733
池松壮亮在正式开拍之前就受伤了
Ikematsu got injured before formal shooting even began,

321
00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:49,733
最后还是用了替身
and in the end they used a double after all.

322
00:14:50,066 --> 00:14:54,000
然后到这里我觉得也不是说完全不能理解
Up to this point, I can sort of see where he's coming from —

323
00:14:54,000 --> 00:15:01,400
就是庵野秀明想要让演员去更多了解角色的这样一个心态吧
Anno wanted the actor to understand the character more deeply.

324
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,766
因为其实你能明显地想到
Because you can clearly see why:

325
00:15:03,766 --> 00:15:06,400
因为本乡猛原本从设定上来讲
originally, by his character setting, Hongō Takeshi —

326
00:15:06,533 --> 00:15:12,366
他是一个 无论之前版本IQ多高、多么有正义感
however high his IQ or how righteous earlier versions made him,

327
00:15:12,366 --> 00:15:14,766
他至少也还是一个普通人
he's still fundamentally an ordinary person.

328
00:15:14,766 --> 00:15:18,533
就是他不是一个一开始就从事打斗的人嘛
He wasn't someone who fought from the start.

329
00:15:18,533 --> 00:15:20,500
那他要开始进入到打斗当中
So for him to enter into combat,

330
00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:23,000
他需要能够体会一种不一样的心态
he'd need to feel a different kind of mindset.

331
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,200
从这个点上我觉得是能理解的
On that point, I can understand it.

332
00:15:25,366 --> 00:15:26,966
但是
But —

333
00:15:27,866 --> 00:15:31,966
意外的可能性首先可能没有很好地去被考虑和管理
first, the possibility of injury wasn't properly considered or managed.

334
00:15:32,266 --> 00:15:35,900
其次我觉得最容易让人难以接受的一个点就是
Second, the part I find hardest to accept is this:

335
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:38,400
在这个纪录片的后段快结束的时候
toward the very end of the documentary,

336
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,100
也就是在拍这个电影的最后一场战斗
which is also when they shot the film's final battle —

337
00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:47,066
两个假面骑士和那个蝴蝶强化人对战的这场战斗
the two Kamen Riders fighting the butterfly Augment —

338
00:15:47,266 --> 00:15:49,966
当时庵野秀明基本上是
Anno basically

339
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:55,800
要求演员们自己去想打斗的动作该怎么样去进行
told the actors to work out the fight choreography themselves.

340
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,933
然后还在脚本上写
And in the script, he actually wrote:

341
00:15:57,933 --> 00:16:00,700
这是一场非常难看的战斗
"this is a very ugly fight."

342
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,400
这个我觉得就有点太强人所难了
That, I think, really is asking too much.

343
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,766
因为我从作品本身的角度
Because, from the standpoint of the work itself,

344
00:16:07,766 --> 00:16:11,500
能够理解他这样做是想要表现出
I can understand he was trying to show that

345
00:16:11,966 --> 00:16:14,000
尽管具有强大的改造力量
even with their powerful cyborg strength,

346
00:16:14,133 --> 00:16:18,800
他们也还有身体的一面 有某种人性的一面
they still have a bodily side, a certain human side —

347
00:16:18,966 --> 00:16:25,566
然后这种残酷的厮杀本身并不是一个特别美丽的存在
and that this brutal killing is not something particularly beautiful.

348
00:16:25,566 --> 00:16:27,566
从概念上我觉得是说得通的
Conceptually, I think that holds up.

349
00:16:27,566 --> 00:16:33,266
但是你的概念能不能直接转化成电影当中被大家所看懂的视觉语言
But whether that concept translates into a visual language audiences can actually read on screen —

350
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:34,666
我觉得是有一个问号的
that, to me, is a real question mark.

351
00:16:34,666 --> 00:16:35,533
然后同时
And at the same time,

352
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:40,266
演员们真的能不能理解你导演的这样一个意图
can the actors really grasp the director's intention?

353
00:16:40,266 --> 00:16:41,333
我觉得也未必
I'm not so sure.

354
00:16:41,333 --> 00:16:42,566
就像刚才也提到的
Like I mentioned earlier,

355
00:16:42,566 --> 00:16:45,133
就是庵野秀明经常在采访里说一些
Anno often says things in interviews

356
00:16:45,133 --> 00:16:48,200
我觉得和他自己做的事不太一样的话
that, I feel, don't quite match what he actually does.

357
00:16:48,266 --> 00:16:51,200
就是像那个97你推荐给我的书嘛
Like that book you — 97 — recommended to me,

358
00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:57,133
就是《我们是这样成为电影导演的》 小中和哉做的这本对谈集里面
it's How We Became Film Directors, an interview collection put together by Kazuya Konaka —

359
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,966
里面也有他和庵野秀明的这样一个对谈
and it includes a dialogue with Anno.

360
00:17:01,533 --> 00:17:03,766
是吧 然后在这个对谈里面
Right — and in that conversation,

361
00:17:03,766 --> 00:17:05,266
庵野秀明自己也说
Anno himself says

362
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,266
他认为自己作为电影导演 拍真人片和拍动画片的一个区别就是
that the difference, for him, between directing live-action and animation is this:

363
00:17:10,266 --> 00:17:14,500
认为真人电影不是他应该随心所欲的
live-action isn't something he should bend entirely to his own will;

364
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:20,800
而是他想办法去让别人去实现出他们自己原本的
instead, he tries to help others realize

365
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:21,933
原本的这样一个潜力
their inherent potential.

366
00:17:21,933 --> 00:17:26,300
但是且不说这方法论本身是否合理或者是否正确
But setting aside whether the methodology itself is sound or correct,

367
00:17:26,333 --> 00:17:28,500
但是从他拿出的结果反推
judging backward from the results he delivered,

368
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:33,400
我觉得他至少对于自己的实践和理想之间有一定的差距
there's clearly a gap between his practice and his ideals.

369
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,966
为什么他坚持让池松壮亮
Why did he insist that Ikematsu Sōsuke —

370
00:17:38,366 --> 00:17:44,566
一开始他坚持让池松壮亮自己去饰演假面骑士去打斗
at the start, he was set on having Ikematsu play the Kamen Rider fights himself.

371
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,566
我觉得最基本可能一个原因
I think the most basic reason

372
00:17:47,566 --> 00:17:49,933
就是因为假面骑士这个电视剧
is the Kamen Rider TV series —

373
00:17:49,933 --> 00:17:52,100
1971年版的电视剧 一开始
the 1971 version. In the beginning,

374
00:17:52,566 --> 00:17:58,333
假面骑士在第一季的时候 就是演员藤冈弘本人
in the first season, Kamen Rider was played by the actor Fujioka Hiroshi himself —

375
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,400
他也真的去演了假面骑士
he really did play Kamen Rider,

376
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,133
就是真的穿着皮套去打
actually putting on the suit and fighting.

377
00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:05,600
然后那些其他的 像是那个
Then the other roles —

378
00:18:06,333 --> 00:18:09,066
修卡的怪人 还有战斗员
Shocker's kaijin and its combatants —

379
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,266
是大野剑友会 这么一个相当于是龙虎武师团体的角色
were handled by the Ōno Kenyūkai, a stunt troupe akin to a martial-arts stunt team —

380
00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:15,933
去饰演那些其他的角色
playing all those other parts.

381
00:18:16,466 --> 00:18:17,266
但是
But

382
00:18:17,566 --> 00:18:19,466
有一个很大的区别
there's one big difference:

383
00:18:19,466 --> 00:18:23,333
就是藤冈弘他本人 就是1971版这个演员
Fujioka Hiroshi himself — the actor in the 1971 version —

384
00:18:23,333 --> 00:18:27,766
他本人是有一些武术的基础的
actually had some martial-arts training.

385
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,466
反而池松壮亮他这次这个新版
Whereas Ikematsu, in this new version —

386
00:18:32,566 --> 00:18:34,066
他演过《末代武士》
he's been in films like The Last Samurai,

387
00:18:34,066 --> 00:18:35,333
你也不能说他没有武术
so you can't say he has no fighting ability.

388
00:18:35,333 --> 00:18:39,600
是 但是他没有那种真的练习过柔道、空手道那些
Right — but he never really trained in judo, karate, that kind of thing.

389
00:18:40,333 --> 00:18:42,500
他没有这样的一个基础 反而让他
Without that kind of foundation,

390
00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:47,700
在短期内去强制集训、去排练
forcing him through crash training and rehearsals in such a short time,

391
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:53,500
让他在短时间内成为这样一个武术达人 本身是一件不可能的事情
and expecting him to become a martial-arts master overnight is simply impossible.

392
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:56,000
反而是庵野秀明有点强人所难
Anno was really asking too much here.

393
00:18:56,133 --> 00:19:00,500
他把当年演员自己去饰演假面骑士的做法
He took the old practice, where the actor played Kamen Rider himself,

394
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,000
那我这次也要这么做
and decided to do it again this time —

395
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:06,766
他把自己这个美好的想法强加到了演员身上
imposing his own idealized notion onto the actor.

396
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,466
最后在演员真正开拍之前受伤之后
Then, after the actor got hurt right before formal shooting,

397
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,600
然后他在开会时说了一句
Anno said, in a meeting:

398
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,166
那受伤了那没办法 那还是找个替身吧
"Well, he's hurt, nothing we can do — let's just get a double."

399
00:19:17,266 --> 00:19:19,766
其实当时他在纪录片里说这句话的时候
Honestly, hearing him say that line in the documentary,

400
00:19:19,766 --> 00:19:21,400
我觉得作为导演
I felt that, for a director,

401
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:22,933
突然在这种时间点说这句话
to suddenly say this at that moment

402
00:19:22,933 --> 00:19:26,500
是一个很不负责任的做法
was a deeply irresponsible thing to do.

403
00:19:27,333 --> 00:19:30,766
你让演员一开始 一个没有什么基础的演员
You put an actor — one with no real martial-arts foundation —

404
00:19:30,766 --> 00:19:35,300
强行去参加这些集训 或者怎样去练习
and force him through all this training and rehearsal,

405
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:36,666
最后受伤了说
and then he gets injured, and you go —

406
00:19:36,666 --> 00:19:38,066
那不行那还是用替身吧
"this isn't working, we'll just have to use a double."

407
00:19:38,466 --> 00:19:40,866
那你之前让演员做的事情
So everything you had the actor do before —

408
00:19:41,333 --> 00:19:44,366
不都全都是 说白了就是一种无用功
wasn't it all, frankly, just wasted effort?

409
00:19:44,766 --> 00:19:50,500
包括后来他这次请到的动作指导团队
Take the action-choreography team he brought in for this —

410
00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:52,266
那些动作指导
the fight coordinators.

411
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,600
庵野秀明对他们的要求
Anno's demand to them,

412
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:56,366
一开始是希望你们
at first, was that they

413
00:19:56,366 --> 00:20:03,933
把武打动作重现成1971版当时大野剑友会演员那样的一种打法
recreate the fight style of the Ōno Kenyūkai actors from the 1971 version.

414
00:20:03,933 --> 00:20:05,200
怎么说呢
How to put it —

415
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:09,300
他是一种非常古老、非常原始的
it's a very old, very primitive style.

416
00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:14,300
就是连续挥左拳打这个怪人 连续挥右拳打这个怪人
Just endlessly swinging the left fist at the kaijin, then the right,

417
00:20:14,333 --> 00:20:17,166
然后一个手持机位一直持续跟拍
with a single handheld camera following it all the way.

418
00:20:17,266 --> 00:20:22,100
这样很持续、很原始 很简陋的一种拍摄方式
A very continuous, primitive, bare-bones way of shooting.

419
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,800
那动作导演先准备了好几个月
So the action director spent months preparing,

420
00:20:26,966 --> 00:20:32,266
让所有演员都这样去演、去拍、去感受
getting all the actors to perform, shoot, and feel it out this way.

421
00:20:33,066 --> 00:20:36,133
最后庵野秀明在大家都排练好了之后
In the end, once everyone had rehearsed it,

422
00:20:36,266 --> 00:20:37,933
他说了一句 不对
Anno said: no —

423
00:20:38,166 --> 00:20:39,500
还是别这么拍了
let's not shoot it this way.

424
00:20:40,166 --> 00:20:42,100
然后那些所有动作演员
And all the stunt actors,

425
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:43,900
练了好几个月都傻了
who'd rehearsed for months, were stunned:

426
00:20:44,166 --> 00:20:45,666
突然说不那么拍了吗
suddenly it's not shot that way anymore?

427
00:20:45,666 --> 00:20:47,000
然后庵野秀明说
Then Anno said —

428
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,333
那这样拍感觉效果不好
shooting it like this doesn't feel right,

429
00:20:50,333 --> 00:20:55,266
然后你们这些所有动作都感觉是事先排练好的
all your movements feel pre-rehearsed,

430
00:20:55,266 --> 00:20:56,566
没有那种真实感
there's no sense of realism.

431
00:20:58,933 --> 00:21:03,933
然后说而且你们那些被打飞的镜头什么的都吊威亚了
And he added: those knocked-flying shots of yours all used wires —

432
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:06,900
我不喜欢吊威亚的感觉 以后也不用威亚了
I don't like how wirework feels, so no more wires from now on.

433
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:09,166
那那怎么打
Well then — how do you fight?

434
00:21:09,166 --> 00:21:13,366
你事先想好的和之后你真正要求的
What you planned in advance and what you end up demanding

435
00:21:13,666 --> 00:21:14,800
他是一直在改变
keep shifting.

436
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,300
庵野秀明在不停地制作的过程中 是在否定自己的想法
Throughout production, Anno keeps negating his own ideas.

437
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:22,733
就包括大白也给我推了EVA的纪录片
Dabai even recommended me the Evangelion documentary,

438
00:21:23,566 --> 00:21:28,666
实际上也很有趣、很好乐的一件事
and honestly, it's a fascinating, funny thing —

439
00:21:28,666 --> 00:21:29,733
你看我们俩都乐了
look, we're both laughing.

440
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,566
非常互文的两个纪录片
Two deeply intertextual documentaries.

441
00:21:33,066 --> 00:21:34,566
大白给我推了EVA的纪录片
Dabai recommended me the Evangelion documentary,

442
00:21:34,566 --> 00:21:36,966
我给大白推了《新·假面骑士》的幕后纪录片
and I recommended him the Shin Kamen Rider making-of.

443
00:21:36,966 --> 00:21:38,366
制作方都是NHK
Both were made by NHK.

444
00:21:38,533 --> 00:21:42,700
然后我们感觉是在不同的题材之下
And we got the sense that, across different subject matter,

445
00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:47,766
这个导演重复在上演同样的一个剧情
this same director keeps replaying the same drama:

446
00:21:47,766 --> 00:21:51,333
就是他不停地在否定自己原来的想法
he constantly negates his own earlier ideas,

447
00:21:51,466 --> 00:21:57,166
然后不停地给周围的制作方、其他工作人员制造困难
and keeps creating problems for the crew around him.

448
00:21:57,366 --> 00:22:01,733
就是他首先对自己想要什么东西
First of all, what he himself wants —

449
00:22:02,366 --> 00:22:05,500
他一直从头到尾 两部纪录片都是这个问题
from start to finish, in both documentaries, it's the same problem:

450
00:22:05,666 --> 00:22:06,900
他是一个不明确的
he's never clear about it.

451
00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:08,933
他甚至都不知道自己想要什么
He doesn't even know what he wants,

452
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,200
就是让他身边的工作人员一直在猜他的想法
so the people around him are always guessing at what he's thinking.

453
00:22:13,466 --> 00:22:15,600
你猜中了 那我就是这个想法
Guess right, and — yes, that's what I wanted.

454
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,333
对 这个在《新·假面骑士》里面表现得更加明显吧
Right, and this comes through even more strongly in Shin Kamen Rider.

455
00:22:19,333 --> 00:22:21,966
就是EVA那个制作当中感觉还好
In the Evangelion production it felt more manageable,

456
00:22:21,966 --> 00:22:23,300
到新假面骑士里
but in Shin Kamen Rider,

457
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:26,166
甚至都是有其他的工作人员点出来了
other crew members even pointed it out —

458
00:22:26,166 --> 00:22:28,366
说庵野监督的风格
they described Director Anno's style like this:

459
00:22:28,566 --> 00:22:31,066
就是你们先提出各种提案
you all put forward various proposals first,

460
00:22:31,066 --> 00:22:33,166
然后他再说不对的这么一个状态
and then he says no — that kind of dynamic.

461
00:22:33,166 --> 00:22:35,166
然后如果说这两个纪录片有什么区别
If there's any difference between the two documentaries,

462
00:22:35,166 --> 00:22:36,100
我感觉就是
I'd say it's this:

463
00:22:36,533 --> 00:22:40,766
《新·假面骑士》那个片的风格 明显比EVA那个片子还要消极
the Shin Kamen Rider one feels distinctly more negative than the Evangelion one.

464
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,700
EVA那个片子最后是一个试图打破 或者说试图走出的这样一个状态
The Evangelion one ends in a state of trying to break through, to break out.

465
00:22:46,333 --> 00:22:48,400
然后《新·假面骑士》的纪录片里
In the Shin Kamen Rider documentary,

466
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,600
我们看到的就是说
what we see is

467
00:22:49,700 --> 00:22:54,900
工作人员们的态度逐渐地从充满热情到消沉起来
the crew's mood shifting from enthusiasm to dejection.

468
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:58,800
就是大家被一遍一遍地反复修改
Everyone gets made to revise, over and over,

469
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,200
反复去否定自己之前做的事情
to keep negating what they'd done before,

470
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,566
而渐渐地难以去形成一个团队
and gradually it becomes hard to gel as a team.

471
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,933
刚才也提到男主角池松壮亮
As I mentioned, the lead actor Ikematsu Sōsuke —

472
00:23:09,933 --> 00:23:11,800
我觉得他真的挺不容易的
I really think he had it rough.

473
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,766
这个片如果说有什么让人共情的点
If this film has anything to empathize with,

474
00:23:14,766 --> 00:23:16,966
就是能够共情池松壮亮
it's the empathy you feel for Ikematsu,

475
00:23:16,966 --> 00:23:19,500
还有像你刚才说的动作指导们
and, as you said, the fight coordinators.

476
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:21,766
我觉得首先池松壮亮确实
First off, Ikematsu really did

477
00:23:21,766 --> 00:23:28,333
能够从庵野秀明的指示当中读到了自己应该去做什么
manage to read, from Anno's directions, what he was supposed to do,

478
00:23:28,333 --> 00:23:30,166
也试图地去做了
and he tried to do it.

479
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:34,333
但是尽管他感觉体会到了导演的意图
But even though he sensed the director's intent,

480
00:23:34,566 --> 00:23:38,066
还是没有办法实际上在实拍当中
he still couldn't, in the actual shooting,

481
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:44,400
很好地去和这个一遍遍被否定的事情做和解
come to terms with having his work rejected again and again.

482
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:46,600
甚至有好多好多镜头
There were even many takes where —

483
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:49,533
池松拍完了说 这条能不能拷给我
after a take, Ikematsu would ask if he could get a copy of it,

484
00:23:49,533 --> 00:23:53,100
我估计反正到时候也会被监督否定掉
saying — it'll probably get cut by the director anyway,

485
00:23:53,133 --> 00:23:54,966
但是我觉得这条拍得还挺好的
but I think this one turned out pretty well,

486
00:23:54,966 --> 00:23:57,000
我想留着 之类的这样的话
so I'd like to keep a copy for myself — that kind of thing.

487
00:23:57,366 --> 00:24:00,000
还有一条挺好的镜头拍完了之后
And there was another good take — after they finished it,

488
00:24:00,133 --> 00:24:03,500
这个所有的工作人员都非常激动地在一起庆祝
all the crew celebrated together, thrilled,

489
00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:04,066
然后欢呼
cheering,

490
00:24:04,066 --> 00:24:06,800
觉得团队磨合到了一个比较舒服的位置
feeling the team had finally clicked into a good rhythm.

491
00:24:07,133 --> 00:24:11,200
然后这个时候NHK的纪录片组也很懂镜头语言
And here, NHK's documentary team, who really understand visual language,

492
00:24:11,333 --> 00:24:16,466
切了一个庵野秀明坐在前景的一个背影
cut to a shot of Anno seen from behind in the foreground,

493
00:24:16,966 --> 00:24:19,300
然后远景是这些庆祝的工作人员
with the celebrating crew in the background.

494
00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:20,500
他一个人坐在那里
He sits there alone,

495
00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:23,000
在那个摄影棚里
in the studio,

496
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,400
看着那个监视器的画面
staring at the monitor,

497
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,500
然后其他的人在远处庆祝
while everyone else celebrates off in the distance.

498
00:24:26,733 --> 00:24:30,566
就是有一种非常奇怪的张力在里面
There's a very strange tension to it.

499
00:24:30,666 --> 00:24:36,200
那一个镜头几乎就能反映整个制作团队的状态
That single shot almost captures the whole state of the production team.

500
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,066
然而最搞笑的是弹幕
But the funniest part is the danmaku —

501
00:24:38,066 --> 00:24:40,600
通过弹幕我还看到 那一条最后被剪了
through the comments, I learned that this take got cut in the end.

502
00:24:40,666 --> 00:24:43,333
对 那条甚至在正片里都没有保留
Right, it wasn't even kept in the final film.

503
00:24:43,666 --> 00:24:44,800
因为我觉得
Because, the way I see it —

504
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,366
你要说EVA和新假面骑士制作上
if you compare the making of Evangelion and Shin Kamen Rider,

505
00:24:48,966 --> 00:24:52,000
新假面骑士造成了更大的这种不好的反馈
Shin Kamen Rider generated far more of this negative fallout —

506
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,733
最大的原因就是
and the biggest reason is:

507
00:24:54,133 --> 00:24:55,800
EVA它是一个动画作品
Evangelion is an animated work.

508
00:24:56,466 --> 00:24:58,600
它就算提前出了问题
Even if problems come up,

509
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,266
CG方面有问题
say, issues with the CG,

510
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,266
它可以全用CG去修改原画 一帧一帧去改
you can fix it all in CG, redraw the art frame by frame.

511
00:25:04,466 --> 00:25:09,533
但是假面骑士它是一个实写 就是一个真人拍摄的片子
But Kamen Rider is live-action — a film shot with real people.

512
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,200
你在现场 演员的工作时间是受限的
On set, the actors' working hours are limited,

513
00:25:14,566 --> 00:25:15,966
剧组工作人员受限的
the crew's hours are limited too.

514
00:25:16,466 --> 00:25:17,600
然后真人拍摄
And with live-action shooting,

515
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,333
从头到尾 一条过了就是过了 没过就是没过
a take either works or it doesn't — that's it.

516
00:25:21,466 --> 00:25:24,400
他在现场给不出一个导演该有的反馈
On set, he can't give the feedback a director is supposed to give,

517
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,866
提前也没有一个该有的导演的怎么说 准备好的分镜
and beforehand he lacks, how to say, the storyboards a director should have prepared.

518
00:25:29,866 --> 00:25:35,000
提前想好我想要什么 他没有一个明确的想法
He has no clear idea, in advance, of what he actually wants.

519
00:25:35,166 --> 00:25:38,166
在现场作为一个导演这样的职位
On set, in the role of director,

520
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,600
他没有能力 或者说他
he either lacks the ability, or

521
00:25:41,333 --> 00:25:43,700
自己的风格不适合去掌控
his own style just isn't suited to controlling

522
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:46,800
一个真人这么几百人、几十人的大团队
a large live-action team of dozens or hundreds of people,

523
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:49,966
去在现场 在短时间内做出一个决断
making decisions on the spot, under time pressure.

524
00:25:50,166 --> 00:25:52,266
这是一个很严重的问题
That's a very serious problem.

525
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:55,133
曾经那个纪录片也有一段嘛
There's a stretch in the documentary, too —

526
00:25:55,133 --> 00:25:57,600
在工厂拍摄打戏的时候
while shooting a fight scene in a factory,

527
00:25:57,900 --> 00:25:58,766
他拍着拍着
partway through filming,

528
00:25:58,766 --> 00:26:00,566
他突然说 不对
he suddenly says: no,

529
00:26:00,666 --> 00:26:01,500
别在这拍了
let's not shoot here.

530
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:03,566
然后他一个人就溜达
Then he wanders off by himself,

531
00:26:03,566 --> 00:26:08,166
自己去找感觉 觉得可以拍景的地方了
off to scout for a spot himself, until he finds one he thinks will work.

532
00:26:08,366 --> 00:26:10,400
这在真人现场
On a live-action set,

533
00:26:10,466 --> 00:26:13,766
尤其是日本 拍摄时间非常受限
especially in Japan where shooting time is extremely tight,

534
00:26:13,766 --> 00:26:15,900
然后制作时间受限的场景下
and production time is limited,

535
00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:18,500
这是一个很不能理解的事情
this is really hard to understand.

536
00:26:18,733 --> 00:26:21,266
因为正经的拍摄之前嘛
Because before a proper shoot,

537
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,200
肯定是要有监督去堪景 也就是说去看景
the director must go do a location scout — that is, check the sites —

538
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,766
然后提前跟导演、跟制作部 就是场务什么那些其他人商量好
and settle things in advance with the director, the production team, the location staff, and so on —

539
00:26:29,766 --> 00:26:32,733
这个镜头我要在哪儿拍
which shot goes where.

540
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,266
把这些事情提前都决定好
All of it decided ahead of time.

541
00:26:36,533 --> 00:26:38,900
才会这一天决定在这拍
Only then do you decide, on the day, to shoot here,

542
00:26:38,933 --> 00:26:40,400
把这部分解决掉
and get this part done.

543
00:26:41,133 --> 00:26:43,400
都是有一个提前的演练、提前的想法
It all comes from advance rehearsal and advance planning.

544
00:26:43,666 --> 00:26:46,300
导演要明确地知道自己想要什么
The director must know exactly what he wants,

545
00:26:46,533 --> 00:26:49,566
把这些都传达给工作人员、传达给演员
and convey it all to the crew and the actors.

546
00:26:50,333 --> 00:26:56,200
这是需要作为一个导演该有的最基础的责任感以及功力在的
This calls for the most basic responsibility and craft a director should have.

547
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,466
但是庵野秀明
But Anno —

548
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,166
你说他是一个导演
you call him a director,

549
00:26:59,166 --> 00:27:02,933
但实际上他知名或者说做的更多的是动画导演
but he's really better known, and more experienced, as an animation director.

550
00:27:03,366 --> 00:27:08,600
他把自己对于动画的这种处理方式带入到真人的制作之中
He brought his animation-based way of working into live-action production,

551
00:27:08,766 --> 00:27:11,366
就造成了很严重的割裂感
which created a serious sense of dissonance.

552
00:27:11,933 --> 00:27:13,100
对于演员也是这样
The same holds for the actors,

553
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:14,566
对于其他工作人员也是这样
and for the rest of the crew.

554
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:17,400
所以仅仅是NHK拍摄的这个纪录片之中
So just from this NHK documentary,

555
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:19,866
就是给观众带来一种反馈感
you already get a clear impression:

556
00:27:19,866 --> 00:27:26,566
就是这个导演自己一个人 和演员、和其他工作人员整体是疏离的
this director is off on his own, estranged from both the actors and the rest of the crew.

557
00:27:26,566 --> 00:27:27,966
这个镜头拍完了
After a shot is done,

558
00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:30,900
所有工作人员都是一脸茫然
the whole crew stands there blank-faced,

559
00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:32,366
包括演员也是一脸茫然
the actors included.

560
00:27:32,666 --> 00:27:34,400
这条能不能过 这条行不行
Is this take OK? Does it even work?

561
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,900
我到底在拍什么
What am I filming?

562
00:27:36,066 --> 00:27:37,966
就是我到底在拍什么
What am I actually filming?

563
00:27:38,166 --> 00:27:42,966
这就是很难以让人理解的事情
It's honestly baffling.

564
00:28:24,166 --> 00:28:30,200
就是庵野秀明他自己 在拍摄的同时也在不停地否定自己
Anno himself keeps negating himself even as he shoots,

565
00:28:30,466 --> 00:28:34,000
然后想要去做新的东西 这种想法确实在
and the drive to keep making something new really is there.

566
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,466
但是实际呈现出来以及他的导演功力的效果
But the actual result, and the effect of his directing,

567
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:39,366
并不尽如人意
falls short.

568
00:28:39,366 --> 00:28:41,300
这是一个很大的问题
That's a big problem.

569
00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:42,800
真的就是这样
It really is.

570
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,066
是的是的
Yes, yes.

571
00:28:44,066 --> 00:28:45,166
我同意你说的
I agree with you —

572
00:28:45,166 --> 00:28:46,066
特别是最后一点
especially that last point.

573
00:28:46,066 --> 00:28:53,800
就是他虽然知道自己不应该把动画的思路带到真人电影里来
he knows he shouldn't bring an animation mindset into live-action,

574
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,466
但是感觉在实际上
but in practice it feels like

575
00:28:55,466 --> 00:29:01,533
他其实是在用动画的思路去对待真人的这些剧组和演员们
he's still treating a live-action crew and cast with that animation logic.

576
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:02,866
但像你说的
But as you said,

577
00:29:02,866 --> 00:29:05,133
他是物理意义上行不通的
it just doesn't work, physically.

578
00:29:05,166 --> 00:29:10,666
因为毕竟你新EVA剧场版 从每一部之间隔了有好多年了对吧
After all, the Rebuild of Evangelion films came years apart, right?

579
00:29:10,666 --> 00:29:13,900
比如说从Q到《终》
From You Can (Not) Redo to Thrice Upon a Time, say,

580
00:29:14,133 --> 00:29:17,933
又过了应该有小十年了
that's nearly ten years right there.

581
00:29:18,333 --> 00:29:19,800
你自己的动画公司
Your own animation studio

582
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,000
当然可以花时间去磨
can of course take its time,

583
00:29:22,333 --> 00:29:26,266
让这些动画师、原画师们排期 慢慢等
letting the animators and key artists work to schedule, waiting it out,

584
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:28,300
慢慢地去画
drawing slowly,

585
00:29:28,300 --> 00:29:29,666
然后不行改
redoing what doesn't work.

586
00:29:29,966 --> 00:29:31,400
大家都拿着工资呢对吧
Everyone's on salary, right?

587
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,800
反正这是一份工作
It's just a job to them.

588
00:29:33,166 --> 00:29:36,000
那你作为创始人、作为导演
As the studio's founder and its director,

589
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,066
你要改 那就按你的意思来
if you want changes, it goes your way.

590
00:29:38,166 --> 00:29:40,500
但是现实生活中
But in real life,

591
00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:42,566
大家虽然也是想按照你的意思来
even if everyone wants to follow your wishes,

592
00:29:42,566 --> 00:29:44,766
但是首先你不知道自己具体是什么意思
first off, you don't even know what you mean yourself.

593
00:29:45,066 --> 00:29:48,400
其次大家没有一个档期去无限地等你
Second, nobody has an open-ended schedule to wait around for you,

594
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,800
你自己的经费也不允许嘛
and your own budget won't allow it either.

595
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:53,200
其实也同样是在小中和哉的采访里面
And in that same Kazuya Konaka interview,

596
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:54,100
庵野秀明也说了
Anno also said —

597
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:55,966
就是说在拍真人电影的时候
that when you make a live-action film,

598
00:29:55,966 --> 00:30:00,000
你能达到想象中效果的三分之一就不错了
getting even a third of the effect you imagined is already good.

599
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:01,133
那这是为什么呢
Why is that?

600
00:30:01,133 --> 00:30:03,000
这是因为预算不够对吧
Because the budget isn't enough, right?

601
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,500
你总有一个预算上限
There's always a ceiling on the budget.

602
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:08,900
特别是你又试图希望迎合市场
Especially when you're also trying to cater to the market,

603
00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:12,600
满足自己作为一个商业导演应该有的使命
to live up to your duty as a commercial director.

604
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,733
我其实有时候甚至觉得 哥们你不如放开了
Honestly, sometimes I even think — dude, just let go,

605
00:30:16,066 --> 00:30:18,666
你就忘了自己是商业片导演这个事吧
forget you're a commercial-film director for a second —

606
00:30:18,666 --> 00:30:19,933
也许更快乐一点呢
maybe you'd be a bit happier.

607
00:30:19,933 --> 00:30:21,733
其实你说到底
Well, when it comes down to it,

608
00:30:21,733 --> 00:30:26,666
我感觉还是庵野秀明对于特摄的一种喜爱吧
I still think it comes down to Anno's love for tokusatsu.

609
00:30:27,066 --> 00:30:29,733
庵野秀明他是那个 没记错是山口县出身对吧
Anno is from — if I recall — Yamaguchi Prefecture, right?

610
00:30:29,933 --> 00:30:30,733
山口县出身
He's from Yamaguchi Prefecture,

611
00:30:30,733 --> 00:30:32,400
那是日本的一个小地方
a small place in Japan.

612
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:35,966
他自己的回忆录里都说
In his own memoir he says

613
00:30:36,166 --> 00:30:38,200
他当年也没什么钱去电影院
he didn't have much money to go to the cinema back then,

614
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,966
所以一直看的一些东西都是在电视上看的
so what he watched, he mostly watched on TV.

615
00:30:43,366 --> 00:30:47,566
他从小就比同龄人更喜欢看电视
From a young age, he loved TV more than his peers.

616
00:30:47,866 --> 00:30:53,466
他小时候亲身经历了假面骑士、奥特曼那个年代
As a kid, he lived through the Kamen Rider and Ultraman era firsthand,

617
00:30:54,133 --> 00:30:56,900
所以他自己对于特摄的这种喜爱
so his love for tokusatsu

618
00:30:57,066 --> 00:31:03,000
其实在EVA那个阶段就已经暗暗地致敬了不少了
had, even back in the Evangelion era, quietly paid tribute to those tokusatsu works.

619
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,766
包括他从那个学生时期、中学时期吧
Going back to his student days — middle school,

620
00:31:06,766 --> 00:31:08,766
高中时期他就在
and high school —

621
00:31:08,766 --> 00:31:11,000
学园祭上拍过最早的
he made his earliest films for the school festival,

622
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:18,600
拿这种所谓的8毫米胶片去拍摄自制的特摄小电影
shooting homemade tokusatsu shorts on so-called 8mm film.

623
00:31:18,866 --> 00:31:22,466
在当年他中学、高中的那个学园祭上上映的
They screened at his middle-school and high-school festivals.

624
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:25,866
就说他还是在作品之中拥有一种
The point is, his works carry

625
00:31:26,133 --> 00:31:31,133
就是从小的对于特摄这个领域作品的一种喜爱
a love for tokusatsu he's had since childhood.

626
00:31:31,133 --> 00:31:32,366
那种爱在里边
That love is right there in his work.

627
00:31:33,133 --> 00:31:38,000
包括庵野秀明现在在圆谷英二导演的家乡 福岛县须贺川市
In fact, in Sukagawa, Fukushima — the hometown of director Eiji Tsuburaya —

628
00:31:38,266 --> 00:31:40,333
他专门在当地建设了
Anno built,

629
00:31:40,333 --> 00:31:42,600
一个叫做Tokusatsu ARCHIVE
a place called the Tokusatsu Archive Center —

630
00:31:43,166 --> 00:31:45,333
就是特摄博物馆
essentially a tokusatsu museum.

631
00:31:45,666 --> 00:31:49,266
这么一个 对 资料库性质的
a kind of archive, really,

632
00:31:49,266 --> 00:31:54,600
完全不收费、全免费开放的这么一个场所
a completely free, open-to-all space.

633
00:31:54,900 --> 00:32:00,066
这儿收藏了很多从上个世纪50、60、70年代到现在为止
It holds many pieces spanning from the 1950s, 60s, and 70s up to today —

634
00:32:00,333 --> 00:32:04,466
很多特摄剧组使用完的一些道具
props used and left behind by tokusatsu productions.

635
00:32:05,066 --> 00:32:05,600
怎样怎样的
and so on.

636
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,500
就是拍摄完的道具 大多数美术道具
Most of these art props, once filming wraps —

637
00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:11,533
像是一些飞船 然后奥特曼的飞行人偶
things like spaceships, or the flying Ultraman puppets —

638
00:32:11,533 --> 00:32:13,266
这些东西 很多时候拍摄完了
a lot of the time, after the shoot,

639
00:32:13,266 --> 00:32:15,733
就是仓库里丢着 或者说扔了
they'd just be dumped in a warehouse, or thrown out —

640
00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:17,766
就不会特地保存
nobody would bother preserving them.

641
00:32:17,766 --> 00:32:20,666
所以现在很少有这种东西保存下来
So few of these are preserved today.

642
00:32:20,666 --> 00:32:22,300
但是庵野秀明一直在做的事情
But what Anno has been doing

643
00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:25,600
就是从各大公司把这些他们不要的
is collecting these unwanted, discarded props

644
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,766
已经拍摄制作完成的道具
from all the major companies —

645
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,966
当做了一种历史保存下来
and preserving them as a piece of history.

646
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,400
这个我觉得是他在导演这个身份以外
To me, this is something that, beyond his role as a director,

647
00:32:35,466 --> 00:32:38,000
作为一个特摄文化的一种传承人
as a torchbearer of tokusatsu culture,

648
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,600
一种怎么说 现在也可以说他是
and, how to put it, you could even say he's now —

649
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,133
这个领域的领军人
a leading figure in the field.

650
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:48,100
他可以做出来的、最让大家无可挑剔的一件事
It's the most unassailable thing he's done.

651
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,300
即使我并不是很喜欢庵野这个人
Even though I don't much like Anno as a person,

652
00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:53,133
但是他做的这件事情还是很让我钦佩的
this particular thing I really do admire.

653
00:32:53,566 --> 00:32:57,733
说回他学生时代的这种爱吧
Back to that love from his student days —

654
00:32:57,933 --> 00:33:04,000
他其实很多那种爱的表现方式 也在他作品的镜头之中有所展现
a lot of how that love shows itself comes through in the shots of his films.

655
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,500
就是你看到奥特曼、假面骑士里面
Take Ultraman and Kamen Rider —

656
00:33:07,866 --> 00:33:11,566
新假面骑士里面他用了很多那种怼脸拍
in Shin Kamen Rider he uses a lot of extreme close-ups on the face,

657
00:33:12,066 --> 00:33:15,166
就是一个人物的大头 一个鱼眼镜头拍摄
a character's head shot with a fisheye lens,

658
00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:18,133
或者说一个很空旷的大房间
or a vast, empty room,

659
00:33:18,133 --> 00:33:20,933
然后从一个监控摄像头 或者是一个很
shot from a surveillance camera, or from some

660
00:33:20,933 --> 00:33:26,466
隐蔽的俯视 或者一个仰视的角度
hidden high or low angle —

661
00:33:27,066 --> 00:33:28,000
嗯对对对
Yeah, exactly.

662
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,733
那种看起来就很猥琐
the kind that looks kind of creepy,

663
00:33:29,933 --> 00:33:33,200
然后镜头前面挡着东西的那么一种拍摄方式
with something blocking part of the frame — that kind of camera work.

664
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:38,166
实际上这也是庵野秀明从特摄之中继承下来的一种
This is actually something Anno inherited from tokusatsu —

665
00:33:38,166 --> 00:33:39,500
可以说是DNA吧
you could call it part of its DNA.

666
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:41,166
因为这种拍摄方式最早是
Because this style first appeared

667
00:33:41,166 --> 00:33:44,300
在特摄领域是60年代
in tokusatsu, back in the 1960s,

668
00:33:44,866 --> 00:33:47,933
实相寺昭雄这位导演拍摄过这个
when the director Akio Jissōji shot

669
00:33:47,933 --> 00:33:50,066
奥特曼里面的那个《故乡是地球》
the Ultraman episode "My Home Is Earth,"

670
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:56,900
然后赛文奥特曼里面的《被盯上的街》 和后面的《第四行星的噩梦》
and, in Ultraman Seven, "The Targeted Town" and "Nightmare of Planet 4."

671
00:33:56,900 --> 00:33:59,000
这样一位非常有名的特摄导演
He's a hugely influential tokusatsu director,

672
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,066
他一开始使用的这样一种镜头语言表达方式
and the visual language he pioneered

673
00:34:03,266 --> 00:34:08,133
给观众一种非常闭塞、非常喘不上气、让你难受的镜头
gives the viewer a claustrophobic, suffocating, uncomfortable feeling.

674
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:09,800
这个本身就是用意
That's the intent itself:

675
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,700
他这个画面就是想表达这种闭塞感
the frame is meant to convey that sense of enclosure,

676
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:14,900
让观众喘不上气这种感觉
that breathless feeling in the viewer.

677
00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:16,766
它是有这种目的性在里面的
There's a real purpose behind it —

678
00:34:17,066 --> 00:34:22,133
以表达这种特摄作品故事的那种怪奇性
to express the eerie strangeness of tokusatsu storytelling.

679
00:34:22,133 --> 00:34:23,533
用这种方式来进行表达
That's how it's expressed.

680
00:34:24,166 --> 00:34:24,733
实际上
Actually,

681
00:34:24,733 --> 00:34:26,866
我给观众朋友们推荐两集作品吧
let me recommend two episodes to everyone.

682
00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:33,200
一个是实相寺昭雄导演的《怪奇大作战》的第25集
One is episode 25 of Jissōji's Kaiki Daisakusen,

683
00:34:33,533 --> 00:34:35,133
叫做《买下京都》
titled "I'll Buy Kyoto."

684
00:34:35,333 --> 00:34:40,566
这个是我认为实相寺昭雄导演在圆谷特摄作品之中的最高杰作
In my view, it's Jissōji's finest work among the Tsuburaya tokusatsu productions.

685
00:34:41,266 --> 00:34:41,966
对
Right.

686
00:34:41,966 --> 00:34:42,700
看完这集之后
After you watch this episode,

687
00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:45,700
观众朋友们再去感受一下那些镜头的镜头感
go back and take in the feel of those shots —

688
00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:47,366
是不是和庵野秀明很像
see if they don't resemble Anno's,

689
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,900
但是整体又比庵野秀明那种感觉更高级
but with a more refined feel overall than Anno's.

690
00:34:51,933 --> 00:34:54,933
庵野秀明很多镜头是继承了
Many of Anno's shots inherit

691
00:34:54,933 --> 00:34:57,133
实相寺昭雄导演这种DNA在里面
the DNA of director Akio Jissōji.

692
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:01,400
不过你说的这个 我其实也就想到 刚才也提到过的
What you're saying actually reminds me of something mentioned earlier —

693
00:35:01,533 --> 00:35:04,000
庵野秀明的一个 像你刚才讲的
one of Anno's techniques —

694
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,533
可能是致敬实相寺昭雄的一个运镜方式
as you said, possibly an homage to Jissōji's camerawork —

695
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,266
其实可能一定程度上也传达了
may to some extent also convey

696
00:35:10,333 --> 00:35:14,100
一种人和机械的意志感 或者甚至融合感
a sense of will — even fusion — between human and machine.

697
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:17,100
我觉得这个点是庵野秀明
I think this is something in Anno's work

698
00:35:17,366 --> 00:35:20,533
作品当中一直也是比较重要的一个特征
that's always been a fairly important feature.

699
00:35:20,533 --> 00:35:22,466
所以从这个意义上
So in that sense,

700
00:35:22,466 --> 00:35:26,300
他会继承 或者说模仿实相寺昭雄这个风格
his inheriting — or imitating — Jissōji's style

701
00:35:26,466 --> 00:35:28,766
我觉得也是非常合理的
makes perfect sense to me.

702
00:35:28,766 --> 00:35:32,066
但是这种意志感和
But this sense of will,

703
00:35:32,566 --> 00:35:35,900
有一些可能说不出话的压抑
and a certain unspeakable oppressiveness —

704
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:42,200
它是不是真的适合放在一个IMAX屏幕的商业院线片
is it really suited to a commercial IMAX release?

705
00:35:42,466 --> 00:35:44,000
这个是我的一个质疑
That's my point of contention.

706
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:50,333
我觉得这种拍摄风格本身是能够表达出一种作品的态度和思想的
This style can express a work's attitude and ideas,

707
00:35:50,333 --> 00:35:52,200
但是它并不一定好看
but it isn't necessarily pleasant to watch —

708
00:35:52,733 --> 00:35:54,566
这两者之间是有张力的
there's a tension between the two.

709
00:35:54,566 --> 00:35:56,666
因为实相寺昭雄他本身
Because Jissōji himself,

710
00:35:56,666 --> 00:35:58,466
就是在60年代70年代
back in the 60s and 70s,

711
00:35:58,766 --> 00:36:02,100
他也是在日本做一些比较先锋、文艺性质的电影为主的
mainly made avant-garde, art-house films in Japan.

712
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:07,533
奥特曼那些片子其实并不是他的主业
The Ultraman episodes weren't actually his main work.

713
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:10,133
还有一点我想说的
There's one more thing I want to say.

714
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,100
实相寺昭雄他没拍过假面骑士
Jissōji never directed Kamen Rider.

715
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:16,400
他是奥特曼、圆谷这边的导演
He was a director on the Ultraman, Tsuburaya side —

716
00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:21,466
反而东映那边那些 就是假面骑士原版的作品
whereas the original Kamen Rider works came out of Toei.

717
00:36:21,766 --> 00:36:26,933
当时一开始那些导演都是从东映的电影那边下来的
Those early directors all came over from Toei's film side.

718
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,566
所以其实观众朋友们不太了解
So the audience may not realize this,

719
00:36:30,566 --> 00:36:33,500
但是我亲自有一种感受的事情就是
but here's something I've personally felt:

720
00:36:33,766 --> 00:36:36,166
假面骑士这个片子就是1971年版
the 1971 Kamen Rider —

721
00:36:36,466 --> 00:36:42,766
他对于画面的用光、用这些镜头
the way it handles lighting and camera —

722
00:36:43,066 --> 00:36:47,533
其实就是用光线和整体氛围的刻画
shaping the whole mood through light —

723
00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:51,533
是跟实相寺昭雄本身那种用镜头语言
differs from Jissōji's own use of camera language,

724
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:55,333
用这一些遮挡的镜头语言去刻画的方式
his way of shaping images through those blocking shots.

725
00:36:55,333 --> 00:36:56,266
本质上不同的
Fundamentally different.

726
00:36:56,266 --> 00:36:59,366
但是庵野秀明在制作新假面骑士的时候
But when Anno made Shin Kamen Rider,

727
00:36:59,766 --> 00:37:03,766
反而采用了圆谷那边儿实相寺昭雄的那种画面处理方式
he instead adopted Jissōji's approach from the Tsuburaya side,

728
00:37:03,766 --> 00:37:07,800
而并不是原版假面骑士那种更善用光影的
rather than the original Kamen Rider's more light-and-shadow style.

729
00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:12,100
所以他把一种跟原版不一样的、另外
So he brought in a different master's approach — different from the original —

730
00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:17,666
一种大师的处理方式 带入到这种有原作的电影之中
into a film that already has a source work.

731
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,733
就是一种混杂感你懂吗
It creates a mishmash, you know?

732
00:37:20,733 --> 00:37:23,933
就是那种"嗯？？嗯？"的感觉
that kind of "huh?? huh?" feeling.

733
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,466
就是我感觉到他模仿的是实相寺昭雄
I feel he's imitating Jissōji,

734
00:37:27,466 --> 00:37:33,500
但是你并没有在新假面骑士之中重新去重置出原版
but you never actually re-created, in Shin Kamen Rider, the original —

735
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:37,966
原作该有的那种另一种大师的处理方式、那种氛围
that other master's approach and atmosphere the source work called for.

736
00:37:38,366 --> 00:37:41,966
这是让我觉得不太能接受的这种事情
That's what I find hard to accept.

737
00:37:42,066 --> 00:37:44,200
因为本身就是相当于两个流派嘛
Because these are essentially two different schools.

738
00:37:44,566 --> 00:37:47,700
你不能用川菜的做法去炒广东菜
You can't cook Cantonese food using Sichuan methods.

739
00:37:47,733 --> 00:37:49,966
对吧 广东菜好吃 川菜也好吃
Cantonese food is great, Sichuan food is great,

740
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:52,366
但是你用川菜的方式去做广东菜
but if you make Cantonese food the Sichuan way —

741
00:37:52,533 --> 00:37:55,900
这件事 你是个吃北京菜的 你也不能理解
even if you're a Beijing-food person, you won't get it.

742
00:37:55,933 --> 00:37:59,533
这是一个根本上的问题
It's a fundamental problem.

743
00:38:00,266 --> 00:38:01,966
明白你在说什么
I get what you mean.

744
00:38:02,166 --> 00:38:03,166
强硬地回到主题吧
Let me steer us back to the topic.

745
00:38:03,166 --> 00:38:06,100
刚才我也说到了一个新假面骑士的角色塑造
Earlier I mentioned the character writing in Shin Kamen Rider —

746
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,866
是我很不喜欢的一个点
a point I really dislike.

747
00:38:07,866 --> 00:38:10,500
就是我朋友看完了当时也有一个感受
A friend of mine, after watching it, had this reaction too:

748
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:13,066
就是这整个片里所有人
in this whole film, everyone —

749
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,266
除了那个二号一文字隼人之外
except for the second rider, Ichimonji Hayato,

750
00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:17,766
有点拟人之外
who's somewhat human-like —

751
00:38:17,766 --> 00:38:19,400
其他就基本不像人
everyone else basically doesn't seem human.

752
00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:21,300
你的朋友是风都獭书馆
Your friend — another tokusatsu researcher in the Chinese community —

753
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:22,933
我的朋友就是风都獭书馆
Yes, that's my friend.

754
00:38:23,066 --> 00:38:25,400
虽然他这句评价也都是抄我的
though he lifted that comment from me,

755
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,500
因为我当时看完真的是这种感受
because that's exactly how I felt after watching it.

756
00:38:27,666 --> 00:38:30,500
就是除了这个一文字隼人 假面骑士2号之外
except for this Ichimonji Hayato, Kamen Rider No. 2 —

757
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,733
他这个稍微有点像人类的性格之外
who has a slightly human-like personality —

758
00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:38,700
就是其他角色就完全没有人类的一丁点概念
all the other characters have not the faintest trace of humanity.

759
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:40,066
就是怪人就不说了吧
The kaijin, needless to say —

760
00:38:40,066 --> 00:38:41,066
主角团这边
but on the protagonists' side,

761
00:38:41,466 --> 00:38:44,500
本乡猛和绿川琉璃子嘛
there's Hongō Takeshi and Midorikawa Ruriko.

762
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,700
绿川琉璃子这个新作里 给的一个设定就是一个
In this new version, Midorikawa Ruriko is written as

763
00:38:48,133 --> 00:38:51,866
一个人形AI、人类机器人这种塑造
a humanoid AI — a human robot.

764
00:38:51,866 --> 00:38:54,066
但是本乡猛作为一个主角
But Hongō Takeshi, as the protagonist —

765
00:38:54,133 --> 00:38:55,733
他在我看来
in my eyes,

766
00:38:55,733 --> 00:38:57,766
就是我历来的英雄观里面
by my longstanding view of what a hero is,

767
00:38:57,766 --> 00:38:59,100
我一直觉得《新假面骑士》里这个角色
I've always felt this character in Shin Kamen Rider

768
00:38:59,533 --> 00:39:03,200
他没有任何丝毫作为主角的魅力性在里面
has not the slightest charm as a lead.

769
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:05,933
首先刚刚我有说过
First, as I said a moment ago,

770
00:39:05,933 --> 00:39:12,200
就是他那种懦弱、内向 害怕并拒绝和人类交流
that cowardly, withdrawn nature — afraid of people, refusing to talk to them.

771
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,500
那种角色性格的特质在里面
Those are the character traits at play.

772
00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:16,600
这是首先其一
That's the first point.

773
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,166
我觉得这是很有问题的
I find it deeply problematic.

774
00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:19,566
其二就是他
The second point is that he —

775
00:39:19,866 --> 00:39:20,166
有吗
Does he, though?

776
00:39:20,166 --> 00:39:20,966
这个人
This guy—

777
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:23,100
等我说完
Let me finish.

778
00:39:23,266 --> 00:39:25,533
其二呢就是他从头到尾
The second point: from start to finish, he—

779
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:29,000
他并没有作为一个英雄
He doesn't have, as a hero,

780
00:39:29,733 --> 00:39:34,100
一个想要去做什么的动机
any motivation to do heroic deeds.

781
00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:36,466
反而他从头到尾一直都是
Instead, from beginning to end, he just—

782
00:39:36,466 --> 00:39:39,066
绿川琉璃子让他干什么他就干什么
does whatever Midorikawa Ruriko tells him to.

783
00:39:39,066 --> 00:39:42,300
因为她是绿川博士托付给他的一个女儿
Because she's the daughter Dr. Midorikawa entrusted to him,

784
00:39:42,366 --> 00:39:45,566
所以我的任务就是保护她
so his job is to protect her.

785
00:39:45,566 --> 00:39:48,133
他让他去干什么、让他打谁 他就去打谁
Whatever she tells him to do, whoever she tells him to fight, he fights.

786
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,166
这样的一种塑造方式
This way of writing him,

787
00:39:50,733 --> 00:39:53,933
我觉得他缺少了一个主角的主观能动性在里边
to me, lacks the agency a protagonist should have.

788
00:39:54,266 --> 00:39:57,100
包括这也是我一直看不下去EVA的一个理由
It's also why I've never been able to get through Evangelion.

789
00:39:57,300 --> 00:40:03,666
我觉得你身为一个主角 不干一些主角该干的事情
As a lead, you don't do what a lead is supposed to do,

790
00:40:03,666 --> 00:40:06,666
反而一直在让大家看你自己的内心戏
and instead keep making everyone watch your inner drama.

791
00:40:06,766 --> 00:40:08,333
你就给一种戏多的感觉
You come off as a drama queen.

792
00:40:08,333 --> 00:40:11,733
我是很不喜欢这种庵野秀明的塑造方式的
I really dislike this way Anno writes characters.

793
00:40:11,733 --> 00:40:15,000
但是反而 我也正是因为这个
But then again — this is also exactly the same,

794
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,933
对于《新世纪福音战士》 真嗣他一直是这种塑造方式
with Evangelion — Shinji is written the same way all along.

795
00:40:18,933 --> 00:40:22,500
所以我大概有十几次 说我补完这个片子吧
So I've probably told myself a dozen times: I'll finish watching it,

796
00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:23,133
补完这个片子
I'll get through it.

797
00:40:23,133 --> 00:40:24,666
但是看了个开头
but I watch the opening,

798
00:40:24,666 --> 00:40:26,533
他这个主角一直这种性格
and the lead has this same personality throughout—

799
00:40:26,566 --> 00:40:27,933
我就实在是看不下去
and I just can't keep watching.

800
00:40:27,933 --> 00:40:30,200
但是因为EVA这方面 大白你看完了吗
But on the Evangelion side — Dabai, have you finished it?

801
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,600
大概给我讲讲这个角色整体的人物线是怎样的
Give me a rough sense of this character's overall arc.

802
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:37,300
哎呀
Well—

803
00:40:37,366 --> 00:40:39,333
首先先说EVA之前
before I get to Evangelion,

804
00:40:39,333 --> 00:40:44,000
先是想回应一下你说的本乡猛这个塑造的问题吧
I want to respond to your point about how Hongō Takeshi is written.

805
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,800
我觉得其实 给我的感官还好
Honestly, it sat fine with me —

806
00:40:47,966 --> 00:40:50,466
我的批判反而没有你这么激烈
my criticism isn't nearly as harsh as yours.

807
00:40:50,466 --> 00:40:53,766
作为一个更不懂假面骑士 或者说特摄的人来说
As someone who knows much less about Kamen Rider, or tokusatsu in general,

808
00:40:53,766 --> 00:40:57,666
我不知道是不是因为我没有原作的滤镜
I'm not sure if it's because I don't have that fan's rose-tinted lens for the original,

809
00:40:57,666 --> 00:40:58,600
所以没有对比
so I have nothing to compare it to.

810
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,400
这当然可能也是一个因素
That may well be a factor.

811
00:41:00,766 --> 00:41:02,266
但是我觉得
But I'd say this:

812
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,600
首先我没有感受到说他这个所谓的自闭
first, I didn't really register this so-called withdrawnness of his —

813
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,400
我觉得他的铺垫有点太少
I think it's just too thinly set up.

814
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,766
但是从角色动机的角度来讲
But in terms of character motivation,

815
00:41:09,766 --> 00:41:10,800
我觉得是能理解的
I find it understandable.

816
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:16,200
因为他相当于 你原本没有一个战斗的欲望
Because it's like — Hongō had no desire to fight to begin with,

817
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:21,766
然后现在你突然拥有了一种自己无法完全控制的可怕力量
and now he suddenly has a terrifying power he can't fully control.

818
00:41:21,766 --> 00:41:25,900
然后你对于自己应该做什么 可能不是特别确定
So he's not entirely sure what he's supposed to do,

819
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:29,133
但同时你又知道有人可能被害
but at the same time, he knows someone could get hurt.

820
00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:30,933
所以比如绿川博士被害了
So for instance, when Dr. Midorikawa is killed,

821
00:41:30,933 --> 00:41:34,300
所以你不想让更多的人因此被波及
he doesn't want more people dragged into it.

822
00:41:34,533 --> 00:41:37,166
这个动机本身我觉得我是能理解的
That motivation, to me, is understandable.

823
00:41:37,466 --> 00:41:41,133
然后说一句题外的 咱们这是2026年嘛
A quick aside — it's 2026 now, right?

824
00:41:41,133 --> 00:41:43,166
我在看这个片的时候
When I was watching this film,

825
00:41:43,166 --> 00:41:44,400
我第一反应是
my first reaction was — hey,

826
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,366
这不是今年大河剧《丰臣兄弟》里的丰臣秀吉吗
isn't this Toyotomi Hideyoshi from this year's Taiga drama, Toyotomi Brothers?

827
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:51,800
绿川琉璃子的扮演者滨边美波 是这个
And Midorikawa Ruriko's actress, Minami Hamabe,

828
00:41:51,866 --> 00:41:55,333
正好也是今年大河剧里宁宁的扮演者
happens to play Nene in the same Taiga drama.

829
00:41:55,566 --> 00:41:58,566
宁宁就是丰臣秀吉的老婆嘛
Nene being Hideyoshi's wife, of course.

830
00:41:59,066 --> 00:42:01,666
对所以我看到这两个人感觉还挺亲切
So seeing these two together felt oddly familiar,

831
00:42:01,666 --> 00:42:04,466
因为正好在追今年的大河剧
since I happen to be following this year's Taiga drama.

832
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:07,133
这个是一个题外话了
Anyway, that was a digression.

833
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:13,900
你刚刚说的 他对于自身突然变成改造人的这种迷茫
Now, that bewilderment you mentioned — at suddenly being turned into a cyborg —

834
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,533
这一趴其实并不是庵野秀明想表达的
that part isn't actually Anno's invention —

835
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,266
而是原作中他就是这样表达的
it's right there in the original.

836
00:42:20,266 --> 00:42:22,933
因为我刚才也 前面的节目也提到过
As I noted a moment ago, earlier in the episode,

837
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,000
原作中设定上本乡猛
in the original, Hongō Takeshi is written as

838
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,900
就是一个智力体力超群的三好青年对吧
a model youth with exceptional mind and body, right?

839
00:42:30,066 --> 00:42:32,600
所以他本身在原作中也有这种迷茫
So even in the original, he has this bewilderment,

840
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,400
对于改造人这种所谓的悲哀
the so-called sorrow of the cyborg —

841
00:42:34,666 --> 00:42:36,600
就是自己成为改造人
that he himself became a cyborg

842
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,900
要防止这个世界被修卡占领
to keep the world from falling to Shocker,

843
00:42:39,966 --> 00:42:41,933
让其他人不再受这种灾害
to spare others from this calamity—

844
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:43,800
不再受到修卡的迫害
no longer persecuted by Shocker.

845
00:42:43,933 --> 00:42:46,266
这是原作中他就有的表达
This is already there in the original.

846
00:42:47,266 --> 00:42:51,666
但是原作中更多的
But in the original, much of the portrayal—

847
00:42:51,666 --> 00:42:55,600
一些描写是本乡猛他成为改造人之后
shows that after Hongō Takeshi becomes a cyborg,

848
00:42:55,666 --> 00:42:56,733
他虽然有这种悲哀
even though he carries this sorrow,

849
00:42:56,733 --> 00:43:00,066
但他还是整体上比较积极向上
he stays largely upbeat overall,

850
00:43:00,066 --> 00:43:03,100
或者说 没有失去笑容
or rather, never loses his smile.

851
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:04,700
没有失去笑容
He doesn't lose his smile.

852
00:43:05,266 --> 00:43:06,733
虽然自己很悲哀
Although he himself is deeply sad,

853
00:43:06,733 --> 00:43:09,533
但是和其他人交往接触的时候
when he's with other people,

854
00:43:10,066 --> 00:43:13,533
没有非常明显地把这份悲哀表达在脸上
he doesn't wear that sorrow openly on his face.

855
00:43:13,666 --> 00:43:16,600
不会把自己塑造得像一个机器人、像一块木头一样
He isn't made to come across like a robot, like a block of wood.

856
00:43:17,066 --> 00:43:18,700
反而庵野秀明这个新的
But Anno's new version —

857
00:43:18,933 --> 00:43:20,800
塑造的新本乡猛
the new Hongō Takeshi he created —

858
00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:22,533
从头到尾
from beginning to end,

859
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:24,966
这种悲哀感就是融入在里面
that sorrow is baked into him throughout.

860
00:43:24,966 --> 00:43:26,366
但是演员
And the actor—

861
00:43:26,466 --> 00:43:28,000
你刚才也说池松壮亮
you mentioned Ikematsu Sōsuke earlier —

862
00:43:28,533 --> 00:43:33,533
这个人物从头到尾 这个新的本乡猛就是啊、怎么办
this new Hongō Takeshi, from start to finish, is stuck in an "ah, what do I do" daze,

863
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,600
很悲哀就是很木讷的一种状态
a sad, wooden state.

864
00:43:36,733 --> 00:43:39,600
所以他在我的观感里就是
So in my impression, he just—

865
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,900
他一直是绿川琉璃子让他干什么 他就干什么
he just does whatever Midorikawa Ruriko tells him to.

866
00:43:43,066 --> 00:43:48,966
没有一个身为主角的自我意识 是一个很大的问题
Having no sense of self as a protagonist — that's a big problem.

867
00:43:49,533 --> 00:43:52,733
说回EVA吧
That includes Evangelion — coming back to it,

868
00:43:52,733 --> 00:43:54,000
我可没怎么看明白
I never really followed it,

869
00:43:54,266 --> 00:43:56,066
真嗣君他也是这种感觉吗
is Shinji this same kind of character?

870
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,800
我觉得真嗣就是他给人的整体一个感觉
I think the overall impression Shinji gives

871
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,766
可能确实更接近于你批判的这样一个状态
probably does come closer to the state you were criticizing.

872
00:44:03,766 --> 00:44:09,700
所以也能理解为什么你不太能够看下去《新世纪福音战士》这样的一个作品
So I get why you can't sit through a work like Evangelion.

873
00:44:09,966 --> 00:44:12,366
但是从我的角度看
But from my angle,

874
00:44:12,366 --> 00:44:18,166
真嗣他的痛苦 或者说自闭 很大程度上还是来自于被迫
Shinji's pain — or withdrawnness — largely comes from being forced into matters of great importance.

875
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:24,800
那至于你说被迫之后 人是不是需要展现出英雄的这样一个自觉
As for whether, once forced, a person must then show heroic self-awareness—

876
00:44:24,866 --> 00:44:26,966
或者说是不是一定要有笑容
or whether they must always smile—

877
00:44:27,366 --> 00:44:30,866
我觉得是可以讨论的吧
that, I think, is open to debate.

878
00:44:30,933 --> 00:44:35,166
就是我不认为说英雄一定要
I don't believe a hero has to be someone who,

879
00:44:35,166 --> 00:44:40,500
无论面对什么样的命运 都能笑得出来才叫英雄
no matter what fate they face, can always manage a smile.

880
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:43,533
因为那样的英雄确实很吸引人
Such a hero is of course appealing,

881
00:44:43,533 --> 00:44:46,100
很正面 然后也让人崇敬
positive, and admirable.

882
00:44:46,366 --> 00:44:50,066
但是我不觉得说只有这样才叫做英雄
But I don't think that's the only way to be a hero.

883
00:44:50,166 --> 00:44:53,100
而真嗣体现的更多的就是
What Shinji showcases is more about—

884
00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:57,533
特别是在现在的新剧场版系列里面
especially in the current Rebuild of Evangelion series—

885
00:44:58,066 --> 00:45:00,533
他的成长往往带来了
his growth often brings—

886
00:45:00,533 --> 00:45:02,066
一个很负面的后果
very negative consequences.

887
00:45:02,066 --> 00:45:05,333
这个其实是从《破》的结局开始
This actually starts at the end of 2.0,

888
00:45:05,333 --> 00:45:06,733
就一直反复出现的
and it keeps recurring.

889
00:45:06,733 --> 00:45:09,933
就是他试图去把绫波丽救出来
He tries to rescue Rei Ayanami,

890
00:45:09,933 --> 00:45:12,166
然后结果引发了第三次冲击
and ends up triggering the Third Impact.

891
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:13,900
在《破》的结尾里面
At the end of 2.0,

892
00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:16,700
葛城美里还在说 真嗣上吧
Misato Katsuragi is still saying: go for it, Shinji—

893
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:18,800
无论你做什么决定 我们都会支持你
whatever decision you make, we'll support you.

894
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,133
大概就是这么一个意思吧
something to that effect,

895
00:45:20,133 --> 00:45:21,066
不是原话
not the exact words.

896
00:45:21,133 --> 00:45:23,466
然后结果《Q》一开始
Then, as 3.0 opens,

897
00:45:23,466 --> 00:45:26,100
《Q》和《破》本来就已经隔了
3.0 and 2.0 are already separated—

898
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:28,366
在剧情上隔了7年应该是
about seven years apart in the story,

899
00:45:28,366 --> 00:45:32,566
现实当中也是应该隔了差不多有个五六七八年的
and in real life it was something like seven or eight years too.

900
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:38,100
然后一上来 真嗣就被关在牢里
And right from the start, Shinji is locked up in a cell,

901
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:41,000
有几个新角色对他横眉冷对
with new characters glaring coldly at him.

902
00:45:41,066 --> 00:45:44,466
然后葛城美里和赤木律子对他爱答不理
and Misato Katsuragi and Ritsuko Akagi treat him with cold indifference.

903
00:45:45,133 --> 00:45:47,966
真嗣整体的故事脉络
Shinji's overall arc

904
00:45:47,966 --> 00:45:49,000
其实像是说
is basically this:

905
00:45:49,066 --> 00:45:52,366
我被赋予了一个巨大的使命
I've been handed an enormous mission,

906
00:45:52,500 --> 00:45:54,666
然后我试着去接受这个使命
I try to accept it,

907
00:45:54,733 --> 00:45:56,966
我觉得我能够胜任这个使命了
I come to feel I'm up to it,

908
00:45:56,966 --> 00:46:00,900
我觉得我能够去做出一个 怎么样是好的
that I can make a call on what's good,

909
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:01,600
怎么样是对的
what's right,

910
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,933
我为我的责任负起判断了
that I've taken responsibility for the judgment.

911
00:46:03,933 --> 00:46:05,966
然后啪一巴掌打过来打脸了
And then — smack, a slap to the face.

912
00:46:05,966 --> 00:46:08,500
说 其实你说的这些是错的
telling him: what you thought was right is actually wrong.

913
00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:10,366
然后你又自闭了
And so he withdraws again.

914
00:46:10,366 --> 00:46:11,500
又自闭完了之后
After withdrawing again,

915
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:15,500
又在各种情形的催使之下吧
then, spurred on by various circumstances,

916
00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:20,800
在《Q》的当中是渚薰把他又开导了出来
in 3.0 it's Kaworu who draws him back out,

917
00:46:21,166 --> 00:46:24,200
重新给他展示了人类文明的爱呀、快乐呀
showing him again the love and joy of human civilization,

918
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:25,133
等等这些东西
and so on.

919
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,666
他又觉得说 我应该为了这个东西负起责任了
So Shinji again feels he should take responsibility for it,

920
00:46:28,666 --> 00:46:31,733
我应该去做一些正义的事情了
that he should do something righteous.

921
00:46:31,733 --> 00:46:33,600
结果其实又被误导了
But he's misled once more,

922
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,500
就是又掉入了陷阱里面
falling into the trap again,

923
00:46:35,733 --> 00:46:36,533
然后又错了
wrong again,

924
00:46:36,533 --> 00:46:37,533
啪一巴掌又打过来
another slap to the face.

925
00:46:37,533 --> 00:46:38,400
渚薰死了
Kaworu dies.

926
00:46:38,500 --> 00:46:41,100
所以在《Q》的结尾
So at the end of 3.0,

927
00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:41,966
他就又自闭了
Shinji withdraws yet again,

928
00:46:41,966 --> 00:46:46,733
和复制绫波丽以及明日香在大地上走着
walking across the wasteland with the Rei clone and Asuka.

929
00:46:47,066 --> 00:46:52,266
所以这个一直延续到 最后一部剧场版《终》的开头
And this carries all the way into the start of the final film, 3.0+1.0,

930
00:46:52,466 --> 00:46:54,500
他都是一个比较自闭的状态
where Shinji is still fairly withdrawn.

931
00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:55,366
然后当然
Then, of course,

932
00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:57,600
他最后又一次地走了出来
he pulls himself out one more time,

933
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,466
然后迎接了一个相对美好的结局
and reaches a relatively happy ending.

934
00:47:00,966 --> 00:47:05,866
所以我其实单纯从新剧场版这条时间线看的话
So, looking purely at the Rebuild timeline,

935
00:47:05,966 --> 00:47:07,266
我是觉得
I'd say—

936
00:47:08,466 --> 00:47:14,166
你如果说真嗣是一个令人讨厌的角色
If you're saying Shinji is an annoying character,

937
00:47:14,566 --> 00:47:15,900
我能明白你在说什么
I can see what you mean,

938
00:47:15,900 --> 00:47:18,300
但是我是不认同这样一个观点的
but I don't agree with that view.

939
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:19,800
就是我觉得说
The way I see it,

940
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,333
如果你说他不是一个特别高大全的英雄
if you say he isn't some flawless, larger-than-life hero,

941
00:47:22,733 --> 00:47:26,133
他确实也不是最开始就想成为这样一个高大全的英雄
well, he never set out to be that kind of hero in the first place.

942
00:47:26,266 --> 00:47:29,400
因为毕竟《新世纪福音战士》的创作背景是90年代嘛
After all, Evangelion was created against the backdrop of the 1990s.

943
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,600
就是他正好处在一个90年代中末期
It falls right in the mid-to-late 90s,

944
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,400
日本所谓停滞30年刚刚开始的这样一个时期
just as Japan's so-called Lost Thirty Years were beginning.

945
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,000
那一代的青年人对于自己应该承担什么样的历史使命
That generation of young people, as to what historical mission they should shoulder,

946
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,366
本身就有一种集体性的迷茫
felt a kind of collective bewilderment.

947
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,200
包括庵野秀明本人的创作历程
Anno's own creative path included,

948
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,300
可能在那个时间点 他也是一个
at that point in time, he too was

949
00:47:49,366 --> 00:47:56,666
就是痛苦的、未必被认可的 或者说有大量迷茫在里面的成分
in pain, not necessarily recognized, with a great deal of bewilderment in the mix.

950
00:47:56,666 --> 00:47:58,333
但是同时他们又是有天赋的
But at the same time, they were gifted,

951
00:47:58,333 --> 00:48:01,933
他们又一定程度上被别人需要去承担这样的使命
and to some extent, others needed them to take on such a mission.

952
00:48:02,066 --> 00:48:03,500
他可能不完全乐意
They might not be entirely willing,

953
00:48:03,566 --> 00:48:05,333
但是最后觉得说
but in the end they come to think:

954
00:48:05,333 --> 00:48:06,533
那我应该去
well, I should go —

955
00:48:06,533 --> 00:48:07,866
既然我有这样的能力
since I have this ability,

956
00:48:07,866 --> 00:48:09,600
我应该去承担这样的使命
I should take on this mission.

957
00:48:09,733 --> 00:48:12,600
我觉得总的他的态度其实还是一个
I think Anno's overall stance is basically this:

958
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:15,566
先给你一个悲观的基调
it starts you off on a pessimistic note,

959
00:48:15,733 --> 00:48:20,800
然后再走向稍微乐观一点的这样一个状态
then moves toward something a bit more optimistic.

960
00:48:20,900 --> 00:48:23,900
所以我是能够觉得说
So I'd say

961
00:48:23,966 --> 00:48:28,066
他这样的角色有他自己的魅力和完整的角色弧光
a character like Shinji has his own charm and a complete character arc.

962
00:48:28,666 --> 00:48:30,533
大概我理解你想说的
I think I get what you're saying,

963
00:48:30,533 --> 00:48:36,766
我大概也能理解这几个角色在原本EVA的故事里的定义了
and I can roughly understand how these characters are defined in the original Evangelion story.

964
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,733
但是怎么说呢
But how should I put it—

965
00:48:38,733 --> 00:48:40,400
同样是90年代的作品
Both being 90s works,

966
00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:43,466
庵野秀明其实很多次也都
Anno has, on many occasions,

967
00:48:43,466 --> 00:48:47,933
有意无意地把同年代的迪迦奥特曼拿出来
intentionally or not, brought up the same-era Ultraman Tiga,

968
00:48:48,266 --> 00:48:51,566
和自己的EVA并列在一起对比
placing it alongside his own Evangelion.

969
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,366
甚至还说过什么 没有我的EVA 也就没有什么迪迦奥特曼
He's even said things like: without my Evangelion, there'd be no Ultraman Tiga —

970
00:48:55,366 --> 00:48:57,133
这种类似的发言
and similar remarks.

971
00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:00,666
其实庵野秀明把迪迦拿来比较
Anno bringing up Tiga for comparison,

972
00:49:00,666 --> 00:49:01,766
我觉得迪迦确实也可以
I think Tiga really can

973
00:49:01,766 --> 00:49:03,900
跟EVA比较一下
be compared with Evangelion.

974
00:49:03,966 --> 00:49:06,900
就是迪迦奥特曼的剧情一开始设定的是
Ultraman Tiga's story, at the outset, is set up so that—

975
00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:08,333
大古队员
Daigo, the GUTS team member,

976
00:49:08,866 --> 00:49:13,166
他是拥有超古代人类基因在里边的
carries the genes of an ancient super-human race,

977
00:49:13,166 --> 00:49:15,500
也就是某种意义上他也是天选之人
which makes him, in a sense, a chosen one.

978
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,733
所以他才可以变成迪迦奥特曼
That's why he can become Ultraman Tiga.

979
00:49:18,266 --> 00:49:23,533
但是迪迦奥特曼的编剧小中千昭老师 在后来的故事设定脉络之中
But Ultraman Tiga's writer, Chiaki Konaka, in the later development of the story,

980
00:49:23,533 --> 00:49:27,300
觉得自己故事一开始的这个设定是不对的
came to feel his initial premise was wrong.

981
00:49:27,733 --> 00:49:30,300
所以到了故事的大结局的时候
So by the story's finale,

982
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,366
他把整体的设定其实推翻了、给更改了
he overturned the whole premise and rewrote it.

983
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:40,100
就是所有人类其实都拥有超古代人类的光之基因在里面
namely, that all humans carry the light-genes of that ancient race.

984
00:49:40,100 --> 00:49:43,466
就是只要大家心中还有对未来的向往
As long as people still hold a yearning for the future,

985
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,800
就有拯救地球的这种愿望
a wish to save the earth,

986
00:49:46,066 --> 00:49:49,700
人人都可以成为迪迦 这样的一个设定
anyone can become Tiga — that's the setup.

987
00:49:50,100 --> 00:49:52,566
包括后来他中间补全了一集
There's also a later in-between episode they added,

988
00:49:52,566 --> 00:49:55,566
就是大古队员在成为迪迦之前
where Daigo, before becoming Tiga,

989
00:49:56,066 --> 00:49:57,566
受到外星人袭击的时候
when under attack by aliens,

990
00:49:57,700 --> 00:49:59,766
他已经做出了英雄该有的事情
had already done what a hero ought to do.

991
00:49:59,900 --> 00:50:03,000
这个是我觉得作为英雄的一个定义很重要的一点
To me, that's a crucial part of what defines a hero.

992
00:50:03,133 --> 00:50:05,966
就是包括原来的奥特曼
This includes the original Ultraman,

993
00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:08,533
原来的假面骑士什么的都是这样
the original Kamen Rider, and so on — all like this.

994
00:50:08,966 --> 00:50:11,200
毕竟日式英雄这个所谓的定义
After all, the so-called definition of the Japanese hero,

995
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:12,900
它最早发展的原型
its earliest prototype,

996
00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:18,133
就相当于国内说的一些武侠的
is a lot like wuxia in the Chinese context —

997
00:50:18,133 --> 00:50:21,800
三侠五义 这样的一个脉络继承下来的
inherited through works like The Three Heroes and Five Gallants.

998
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,333
历来的什么鞍马天狗呀（口误）
the likes of Kurama Tengu,

999
00:50:26,133 --> 00:50:28,133
代替民众去对抗恶代官
who fight the corrupt magistrate on behalf of the common people.

1000
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:31,666
就他没有那个特殊能力 不是什么宇宙人
He has no special powers, isn't some alien —

1001
00:50:31,866 --> 00:50:33,866
就仅仅是一个侠客
just a xiá (xiákè), a knight-errant,

1002
00:50:33,866 --> 00:50:35,500
这样的一种精神在里面
that's the spirit of it.

1003
00:50:35,733 --> 00:50:37,800
所以他即使没有超能力
So even without superpowers —

1004
00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:40,600
包括特摄英雄、这些科幻英雄
including tokusatsu heroes and sci-fi heroes,

1005
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:46,533
这些角色即使没有超人、没有奥特曼这些能力
even when these characters lack Ultraman-like powers,

1006
00:50:46,700 --> 00:50:48,066
他身为人的时候
as an ordinary human,

1007
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:50,666
已经做了英雄该做的事情
he's already done what a hero does.

1008
00:50:50,766 --> 00:50:55,400
而并不是什么所谓的命运的抉择造就了他成为英雄
It isn't some so-called choice of fate that made him a hero.

1009
00:50:56,733 --> 00:50:59,933
他在成为奥特曼之前 他本身就已经是英雄了
Before he ever became Ultraman, he was already a hero.

1010
00:50:59,933 --> 00:51:01,366
这样一个定义在里面
That's the definition.

1011
00:51:01,866 --> 00:51:04,333
所以说这是我历来的一种英雄观
So this is my longstanding view of heroes.

1012
00:51:05,900 --> 00:51:08,333
庵野秀明明显并不赞同
Anno clearly doesn't share it —

1013
00:51:08,333 --> 00:51:13,500
或者说他自己塑造的一些角色 反而和这个是相反的
or rather, the characters he creates run counter to it,

1014
00:51:13,766 --> 00:51:15,800
反而背道而驰了 我认为
going against it entirely, in my view.

1015
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,600
在我认为的这种传统日式英雄观里面
In this traditional Japanese view of the hero,

1016
00:51:18,700 --> 00:51:21,666
人在成为英雄之前
before a person becomes a hero,

1017
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,800
他本身就是一个英雄这样的一个主题
he is already a hero — that's the theme.

1018
00:51:25,566 --> 00:51:26,466
在我看来
The way I see it—

1019
00:51:27,166 --> 00:51:30,300
是他对于这种社会的一些
it's his attitude toward certain—how to put it—

1020
00:51:30,300 --> 00:51:32,366
稍微边缘一些的群体
somewhat marginalized groups.

1021
00:51:32,733 --> 00:51:35,800
即使边缘一些群体也能成为故事主角
The idea that even a marginal group can be the story's protagonist —

1022
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:40,533
这样的一种有点扭曲的媚宅行为
strikes me as a somewhat twisted, otaku-pandering move.

1023
00:51:40,533 --> 00:51:43,100
所以我很不认同庵野秀明这种英雄观
So I really don't share Anno's view of heroes.

1024
00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:45,366
不知道你那边是怎么觉得的
I don't know how you feel about it,

1025
00:51:45,366 --> 00:51:46,800
但是这就是我的一种概念
but that's my take.

1026
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:47,600
哎呀
Well—

1027
00:51:48,066 --> 00:51:49,566
就是我其实在说
Actually, before I get into

1028
00:51:49,566 --> 00:51:51,800
庵野秀明的英雄观是否认同的时候
whether I agree with Anno's view of heroes,

1029
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,333
我其实想首先对你提出一个质疑
I actually want to raise a question for you first.

1030
00:51:54,333 --> 00:51:56,000
就是你觉得
Do you think —

1031
00:51:56,333 --> 00:51:59,500
新奥特曼里的神永队员
Kaminaga in Shin Ultraman, and —

1032
00:51:59,933 --> 00:52:01,300
新哥斯拉里面
in Shin Godzilla,

1033
00:52:01,300 --> 00:52:02,733
对不起我忘了主角的名字了
sorry, I forget the protagonist's name —

1034
00:52:02,733 --> 00:52:05,600
那个公务员老师（矢口兰堂）
that civil servant guy (Rando Yaguchi) —

1035
00:52:05,866 --> 00:52:07,400
他们算是英雄吗
do they count as heroes?

1036
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:10,133
就以新奥特曼举例吧
Take Shin Ultraman as an example.

1037
00:52:10,366 --> 00:52:14,333
神永就是被奥特曼完全取代了嘛对吧
Kaminaga is completely replaced by Ultraman, right?

1038
00:52:15,133 --> 00:52:19,900
这个故事本身就是继承自1966年原版的奥特曼
This story inherits directly from the original 1966 Ultraman.

1039
00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:22,466
因为原版奥特曼那个故事里边
Because in the original Ultraman story,

1040
00:52:22,466 --> 00:52:27,900
真正的早田队员实际上只在故事的一开头登场了大概几十秒
the real Hayata actually appears for only a few dozen seconds at the very start,

1041
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,800
然后在故事的大结局登场了大概几十秒
and again for a few dozen seconds at the finale.

1042
00:52:32,066 --> 00:52:36,800
除此之外一直是被光之国来的奥特曼所代替的
Otherwise, he's replaced throughout by the Ultraman from the Land of Light.

1043
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,666
就是到故事的最后
And at the very end of the story—

1044
00:52:38,733 --> 00:52:42,500
真正的早田队员实际上没有自己变成奥特曼的记忆
The real Hayata actually has no memory of becoming Ultraman himself.

1045
00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:46,800
只是说他是参考60年代那种外星人故事
It just draws on those 1960s alien-invasion stories,

1046
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:48,133
就是第三类接触那种
like Close Encounters of the Third Kind —

1047
00:52:48,133 --> 00:52:51,400
就是人类被外星人替代了这样的一个设定
the premise where a human is replaced by an alien.

1048
00:52:51,666 --> 00:52:58,333
所以神永我觉得并不太能拿来和庵野秀明历来的角色塑造对比
So I don't think Kaminaga can really be compared with Anno's usual way of writing characters.

1049
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,566
反而神永这个人物 让我觉得很有意思的事情是
Rather, what I find interesting about Kaminaga is this:

1050
00:53:02,666 --> 00:53:06,800
他是一个完全不熟悉地球的
he's someone completely unfamiliar with Earth,

1051
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,366
对于地球来说 认知是一个新生的婴儿这样一种感觉
with the awareness of a newborn when it comes to Earth.

1052
00:53:10,366 --> 00:53:14,766
但是他能在和地球人短短相处的时间之内
Yet within his brief time among humans,

1053
00:53:15,366 --> 00:53:17,733
他能为了地球挺身而出
he stands up for the Earth,

1054
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,866
为了新认识的朋友们
for his newfound friends,

1055
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:24,900
去和自己母星派来的杰顿战斗
fighting Zetton, sent by his own home planet.

1056
00:53:25,166 --> 00:53:26,666
我觉得这是一个很有意思的地方
I find that fascinating.

1057
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,266
就是他是一个怎么说
He's someone who, how to say,

1058
00:53:29,466 --> 00:53:32,733
能迅速让人感受到人性的光辉
can quickly convey the radiance of humanity,

1059
00:53:32,733 --> 00:53:34,066
能影响到外星人
enough to move even an alien,

1060
00:53:34,133 --> 00:53:36,466
并且外星人愿意和人类共同作战
so that the alien is willing to fight alongside humans.

1061
00:53:36,466 --> 00:53:38,866
这个是一个比较正向的东西
That's a fairly positive thing,

1062
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,400
和庵野秀明一直惯例的那种自己扭曲的心态
and unlike Anno's usual sort of twisted mindset,

1063
00:53:44,066 --> 00:53:46,133
怎样怎样的一种反英雄
that whole anti-hero thing.

1064
00:53:46,266 --> 00:53:47,866
我觉得不能一概而论
I don't think they can be lumped together.

1065
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,800
不能同日而语 同样也很难放在一起讨论
They can't be spoken of in the same breath.

1066
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,733
大白有点无奈地笑了 朋友们
Dabai gives a helpless little smile, folks.

1067
00:53:53,733 --> 00:53:55,300
我先给你扣个帽子
Let me put words in your mouth for a second:

1068
00:53:55,300 --> 00:54:00,766
就是你觉得这个东西是英雄 但是他不是庵野秀明的是吧
you think these count as heroes — but the ones Anno makes don't, right?

1069
00:54:01,333 --> 00:54:02,133
对
Right.

1070
00:54:02,366 --> 00:54:05,600
曹操其实就是大家最熟知的一个反英雄形象嘛
Cao Cao is probably the anti-hero everyone knows best —

1071
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,200
就是他不是一个完全正面的形象
not a wholly positive figure,

1072
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:13,866
但是他也在一定程度上跟英雄做了类似的事情
but who, to some degree, does things heroes do.

1073
00:54:13,966 --> 00:54:15,966
然后真嗣这边 还有本乡猛
Now, Shinji, and also Hongō Takeshi—

1074
00:54:15,966 --> 00:54:18,933
我不觉得说他们一定就要被归类到反英雄
I don't think they have to be filed under anti-heroes.

1075
00:54:18,933 --> 00:54:22,133
因为他们的迷茫和最开始的懦弱
Because their bewilderment and their early cowardice,

1076
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:24,900
我不认为一定是一个负面特质
I don't see as necessarily negative traits.

1077
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,333
但同时他们最后毕竟又
And in the end, after all, they do—

1078
00:54:28,333 --> 00:54:30,166
都直面了自己的命运
face their own fate head-on.

1079
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,066
而面对自己的命运这一点
And facing one's fate—

1080
00:54:32,066 --> 00:54:33,700
就无论你的命运是什么
whatever that fate may be—

1081
00:54:33,866 --> 00:54:38,800
从最早的古希腊神话里面 就是英雄最重要的特质之一
has been one of the hero's essential traits ever since the earliest Greek myths.

1082
00:54:39,333 --> 00:54:42,366
所以我还是比较倾向于认为他们是英雄
So I'm still inclined to consider them heroes.

1083
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,466
所以从这一点来说
So on that point,

1084
00:54:44,666 --> 00:54:48,066
如果你说你不喜欢他的懦弱特质
if you say you dislike their cowardly side,

1085
00:54:48,066 --> 00:54:50,333
然后觉得是不是英雄
and question whether they're heroes—

1086
00:54:50,466 --> 00:54:51,500
我可以理解
I can understand that,

1087
00:54:51,533 --> 00:54:53,600
但我觉得他们无论
but I think, whatever else,

1088
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,533
最后你是定义他为英雄也罢、反英雄也罢
whether you call them heroes or anti-heroes in the end,

1089
00:54:56,766 --> 00:55:00,700
他其实都还是有英雄的那一面存在
they still have that heroic side to them.

1090
00:55:00,733 --> 00:55:05,533
所以我不认为这一面应该被完全地忽略掉或者隔离出去
So I don't think that side should be completely ignored or set apart.

1091
00:55:05,733 --> 00:55:09,300
其实比起所谓的英雄与反英雄那种定义
Actually, more than this hero-versus-anti-hero labeling,

1092
00:55:09,733 --> 00:55:17,533
我更觉得庵野秀明这种“这个人就应该是这样命运”的定义
it's Anno's kind of "this person is simply meant for this fate" framing—

1093
00:55:17,533 --> 00:55:19,800
是我不太喜欢的一种塑造方式
that's the writing approach I don't much like.

1094
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:21,533
我就是怎么说
How do I put it—

1095
00:55:21,533 --> 00:55:28,666
我还是比较深受奥特曼和假面骑士这些所谓传统特摄的影响吧
I'm still fairly shaped by traditional tokusatsu like Ultraman and Kamen Rider.

1096
00:55:28,966 --> 00:55:33,700
就是庵野秀明自己也很喜欢的《归来的奥特曼》这部作品
Take Return of Ultraman, a work Anno himself loves —

1097
00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:35,400
乡秀树这个主角
its protagonist, Gō Hideki —

1098
00:55:35,766 --> 00:55:37,333
他即使是人类的时候
even while he was still human,

1099
00:55:38,100 --> 00:55:40,200
没有超能力
without superpowers,

1100
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:41,700
没有变成奥特曼之前
before he became Ultraman,

1101
00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:44,100
他为了救助一个普通的小孩子
he tried to save an ordinary child—

1102
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,666
救助一只普通的小狗还是什么
or an ordinary dog, or something—

1103
00:55:46,666 --> 00:55:47,966
我忘了具体剧情了
I forget the exact plot —

1104
00:55:48,133 --> 00:55:53,466
然后他的生命因为怪兽的袭击而被剥夺了
and his life was taken by a kaiju's attack.

1105
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,800
然后奥特曼看到了这个人美好的品质
Then Ultraman, seeing this person's fine qualities,

1106
00:55:57,066 --> 00:55:59,800
所以决定把自己的生命给予乡秀树
chose to give his own life to Gō Hideki.

1107
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:05,266
就是这是庵野秀明自己也很喜欢的《归来的奥特曼》这部作品
This is Return of Ultraman, a work Anno himself loves.

1108
00:56:05,533 --> 00:56:06,500
这种人
A person like this—

1109
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,766
他之所以成为英雄
the reason he becomes a hero

1110
00:56:09,766 --> 00:56:12,066
是因为他在成为英雄之前
is that even before becoming one,

1111
00:56:12,166 --> 00:56:13,866
就有这种英雄的素质
he already had a hero's qualities.

1112
00:56:13,933 --> 00:56:16,000
在这个人的身上展现了这种光辉
That radiance was already there in him.

1113
00:56:16,466 --> 00:56:18,800
这是我觉得英雄塑造必须该有的
To me, that's essential to writing a hero.

1114
00:56:19,066 --> 00:56:20,600
我明白你想说的东西
I understand what you mean.

1115
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,000
其实我们对于英雄的定义不一样
We just define "hero" differently,

1116
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,566
这个我觉得大家可以见仁见智
and I think that's a matter of opinion.

1117
00:56:26,566 --> 00:56:31,700
其实听友朋友们也可以把你们怎么看待这些角色发到评论区里
Folks, feel free to post how you see these characters in the comments,

1118
00:56:31,700 --> 00:56:34,600
我们都可以去发表一些自己的观念
we can all share our own views.

1119
00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:36,266
但是总体上来讲
But on the whole,

1120
00:56:36,500 --> 00:56:39,133
我还是有一些很想说的东西
there's still something I really want to say.

1121
00:56:39,133 --> 00:56:43,000
就是庵野秀明在这几个新特摄片里
In these new tokusatsu films,

1122
00:56:43,266 --> 00:56:46,400
所展现出来的一些整体上的思想
the overall ideas Anno puts forward

1123
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,800
我觉得是有意思并且值得拿出来去讨论的
are, I think, interesting and worth discussing.

1124
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,700
也是我会想和你一块做这期节目的一个原因
That's part of why I wanted to do this episode with you.

1125
00:56:54,300 --> 00:56:57,133
从一个庵野秀明动画的观众视角来看
From the viewpoint of someone who watches Anno's animation,

1126
00:56:57,133 --> 00:57:03,600
其实这几部特摄 如果说让我总结这三部的一个共通的东西
if I had to sum up what these three tokusatsu films share,

1127
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:04,800
就我看到的
from what I can see,

1128
00:57:04,866 --> 00:57:13,800
我觉得是一个不合群的人和群体性之间的一个关系和挣扎
it's the relationship and struggle between a misfit and the collective.

1129
00:57:13,900 --> 00:57:16,900
一定程度上也和EVA可能有一定的呼应吧
and to some degree it may echo Evangelion as well.

1130
00:57:17,366 --> 00:57:21,800
其实如果从新哥斯拉开始往下说的话
If we start from Shin Godzilla and work through them,

1131
00:57:21,866 --> 00:57:24,666
新哥斯拉像你说的 你只记得开会的部分
Shin Godzilla, as you said, you mostly remember for the meeting scenes,

1132
00:57:24,666 --> 00:57:27,333
因为它确实花了很长的篇幅去描绘
because it really does spend a lot of time depicting

1133
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:33,200
日本政府高层的一个无能 和决策的速度之慢嘛
the incompetence of Japan's top officials and the glacial pace of their decisions.

1134
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:34,600
就是无尽的开会
Endless meetings,

1135
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,400
然后耽误了挺多的事
which hold up a great deal.

1136
00:57:36,900 --> 00:57:42,500
传统意义上的影评 还有学者的解读 也都是在说这个片诞生的背景
Conventional reviews, and scholars' readings too, all point to the film's context —

1137
00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:44,266
一定程度上是在隐喻这个
that, to some extent, it's a metaphor —

1138
00:57:44,266 --> 00:57:49,933
日本政府对311这样的一个灾难的应对响应不力嘛
for the Japanese government's weak response to the 3/11 disaster.

1139
00:57:50,166 --> 00:57:53,800
这是一个传统的看法
That's the conventional take.

1140
00:57:53,866 --> 00:57:55,866
但是其实在这之外
But beyond that,

1141
00:57:55,866 --> 00:57:59,266
我觉得我们也看到了更基层的一面
I think we also see a more ground-level side,

1142
00:57:59,266 --> 00:58:00,900
作品里也有很清晰的表达
something the film expresses quite clearly.

1143
00:58:00,900 --> 00:58:06,100
就是除了顶层设计的纠结与缓慢之外
Beyond the hesitation and sluggishness at the top,

1144
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,666
其实它的基础设施是仍然在运转的
its infrastructure is in fact still running,

1145
00:58:10,666 --> 00:58:13,266
它的整个体系也是仍然在运转的
its whole system is still functioning.

1146
00:58:13,266 --> 00:58:15,566
比如无论政府下达什么指示
For instance, whatever directive the government issues,

1147
00:58:15,733 --> 00:58:17,700
其实都是能够被完成的
it actually gets carried out.

1148
00:58:17,900 --> 00:58:20,200
然后再包括以主角为代表的人们
Then there are the people the protagonist represents —

1149
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,700
各个政府职能部门出来的所谓真正干活的人
the real doers drawn from the various government agencies,

1150
00:58:24,700 --> 00:58:28,300
形成了一个单独的、小的 说白了迷你政府
who form a separate, small — bluntly, a mini-government.

1151
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:32,666
这个迷你政府最后 在政府实际高层被团灭了之后
And this mini-government, after the actual top brass gets wiped out,

1152
00:58:32,766 --> 00:58:38,866
来实际部署和指挥了战胜哥斯拉的反攻思路嘛对吧
is what actually plans and directs the counterattack that defeats Godzilla, right?

1153
00:58:39,133 --> 00:58:42,666
我觉得其实这一点是很值得去注意的
I think that's really worth paying attention to.

1154
00:58:42,666 --> 00:58:46,566
因为主角为首的这些不合群的人、有能力的人
Because these misfits led by the protagonist, these capable people,

1155
00:58:46,666 --> 00:58:53,133
他们是可以在一个更小的团体里面去合群并且去工作的
can actually fit in and work together within a smaller group.

1156
00:58:53,133 --> 00:59:00,100
就是他可能对于大的社群和社会之间的很多复杂的东西是批判的
They may be critical of much of the complexity between the larger community and society,

1157
00:59:00,100 --> 00:59:04,266
但是其实他并没有批判整个所谓现代社会的现代性
but they don't actually reject the modernity of so-called modern society itself.

1158
00:59:04,266 --> 00:59:07,933
因为他还是需要一个完整的组织结构
Because they still need an intact organizational structure,

1159
00:59:07,933 --> 00:59:11,700
一些人来去形成人与人之间的社群关系
people to form the community bonds between one another,

1160
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,933
来形成一些对基础设施的运作
and to keep the infrastructure operating.

1161
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,866
这些东西如果全都瘫痪了
If all of that were paralyzed—

1162
00:59:17,866 --> 00:59:19,466
就是说白了 如果它真的
put bluntly, if it truly collapsed—

1163
00:59:19,466 --> 00:59:21,166
我们经常讲的一句话就是
There's a line we often cite:

1164
00:59:21,166 --> 00:59:23,133
后现代是基于现代之上的
the postmodern is built upon the modern.

1165
00:59:23,133 --> 00:59:29,300
就是你对于现代的批判 一定程度上也是依赖于现代本身这件事存在
Your critique of modernity depends, to a degree, on modernity itself existing.

1166
00:59:29,366 --> 00:59:32,100
如果说所有的职能部门全都瘫痪了
If every functioning agency were paralyzed,

1167
00:59:32,100 --> 00:59:34,266
所有的指令全都下发不下去了
and no directive could be issued at all,

1168
00:59:34,266 --> 00:59:41,566
那么你这些单打独斗的、或者说结成群体的这些有能力的人们
then these capable people — working alone, or banded into groups —

1169
00:59:41,566 --> 00:59:42,900
其实也是做不了什么的
couldn't really do much either.

1170
00:59:42,900 --> 00:59:44,400
我觉得这个隐喻在这里
I think that's the metaphor.

1171
00:59:44,533 --> 00:59:48,500
是不是庵野秀明明确地想传达的一个信息
whether it's a message Anno consciously meant to convey,

1172
00:59:48,533 --> 00:59:49,533
我觉得是未必的
I'm not so sure.

1173
00:59:49,533 --> 00:59:52,300
但是至少我们看到了这样的一个线索
But at least we can see this thread.

1174
00:59:52,366 --> 01:00:00,266
而这个线索其实在新奥特曼和新假面骑士当中 会有一种变形的表达
And this thread reappears, in altered form, in Shin Ultraman and Shin Kamen Rider.

1175
01:00:00,266 --> 01:00:04,000
我觉得到了新奥特曼
In Shin Ultraman,

1176
01:00:04,866 --> 01:00:11,933
它整体故事从中篇开始 就展示了宇宙人之间一个更大的宇宙尺度
from the midpoint on, the story opens onto a larger cosmic scale among alien beings.

1177
01:00:11,966 --> 01:00:20,266
不同的外星人之间想要和地球人去建立连接的这么一个故事背景嘛
It's a backdrop where different aliens seek to make contact with humanity.

1178
01:00:20,266 --> 01:00:21,600
我不知道这个算不算
I'm not sure if this counts, but—

1179
01:00:21,866 --> 01:00:23,566
奥特曼是一种外星人
Ultraman is a kind of alien,

1180
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,733
然后他们其实是可以通过能量来变大的
and they can enlarge themselves using a certain energy.

1181
01:00:27,900 --> 01:00:29,700
然后其他的外星人也可以
Other aliens can do the same,

1182
01:00:29,700 --> 01:00:33,800
通过那个叫贝塔能量对吧 来变大
through what's called Beta energy, right? — to grow giant.

1183
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,900
这个变大并不只是独属于奥特曼的一种特质
This enlarging isn't a trait unique to Ultraman alone,

1184
01:00:37,166 --> 01:00:40,733
而是一种宇宙中被开发出来的科技
but a technology developed out in the cosmos,

1185
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,266
而这种科技有复数个外星文明掌握
one that several alien civilizations possess.

1186
01:00:44,500 --> 01:00:49,266
但奥特曼这个所谓的光之星的文明 是掌握了最先进的
But the civilization of Ultraman's so-called Land of Light holds the most advanced version,

1187
01:00:49,266 --> 01:00:57,200
同时他们也是对其他宇宙中的文明采取一种不太干涉的、保护的态度
and they take a fairly non-interfering, protective stance toward other civilizations in the universe.

1188
01:00:58,266 --> 01:00:59,933
宇宙中还有其他的文明
But there are other civilizations out there too—

1189
01:01:00,166 --> 01:01:07,300
在发现了地球人具有能够被贝塔能量变大成为巨人
After discovering that humans can be enlarged by Beta energy into giants,

1190
01:01:07,300 --> 01:01:11,066
成为一种战斗兵器的潜力之后
with the potential to become a kind of weapon,

1191
01:01:11,066 --> 01:01:13,900
他们就会想把奥特曼排除出去
they want to push Ultraman out of the picture

1192
01:01:13,900 --> 01:01:14,866
然后利用
and exploit—

1193
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:16,300
就相当说白了
put bluntly,

1194
01:01:16,300 --> 01:01:19,866
自己来开发地球的这样一个人力资源
to develop Earth's human resources for themselves,

1195
01:01:19,866 --> 01:01:24,566
来作为自己在星际战略当中的一个部分
as one piece of their own interstellar strategy.

1196
01:01:24,766 --> 01:01:26,000
这个理解没错吧
Is that reading right?

1197
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,333
其实我觉得这个故事设定整体上
Actually, as for this overall premise —

1198
01:01:29,333 --> 01:01:32,666
我不知道它和奥特曼其他作品的关联
I don't know how it connects to other Ultraman works,

1199
01:01:32,666 --> 01:01:38,966
或者说是不是也是从其他更老的作品当中借鉴来的一个设定
or whether it's borrowed from some older work,

1200
01:01:39,066 --> 01:01:41,600
但是单纯看这个设定本身
but just taking the premise on its own,

1201
01:01:41,700 --> 01:01:46,800
我觉得里面值得注意的点是 契约是非常重要的一个东西
what stands out to me is this: the contract matters enormously.

1202
01:01:47,300 --> 01:01:51,066
星际文明之间 如果签订了合约
Once interstellar civilizations sign a pact,

1203
01:01:51,166 --> 01:01:57,733
那其他的文明也只能在一定程度上去接纳这个文明自己做出的选择
other civilizations must, to a degree, accept the choices that civilization makes.

1204
01:01:57,900 --> 01:02:02,900
这个想法本身其实就非常的 怎么讲 现代政治
This idea itself is deeply — how to put it — modern-political.

1205
01:02:03,166 --> 01:02:05,400
但是也不全是这样
But it isn't entirely like that either,

1206
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,266
因为我们还看到了一个非常有意思的点
because we also notice something very interesting.

1207
01:02:08,266 --> 01:02:10,500
当年这片子刚上的时候
When the film first came out,

1208
01:02:10,766 --> 01:02:12,300
我看完我就跟你讨论过
I watched it and talked it over with you—

1209
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:17,266
就是在奥特曼决定对抗佐菲是吧
It's when Ultraman decides to stand against Zoffy, right?

1210
01:02:17,266 --> 01:02:22,066
让地球人们用自己的力量去战胜毁灭兵器的时候
letting humans defeat the doomsday weapon with their own strength.

1211
01:02:22,100 --> 01:02:25,266
那个科学家在干活的时候 有一个镜头
There's a shot of the scientist at work,

1212
01:02:25,266 --> 01:02:26,966
他旁边帮他放了一杯水
with a mug set beside him.

1213
01:02:27,100 --> 01:02:29,133
那个水杯上是丘比
On the mug is Kyubey.

1214
01:02:29,666 --> 01:02:33,866
丘比 对于不知道丘比是什么的观众 做一个解说
For those who don't know Kyubey, let me explain—

1215
01:02:33,866 --> 01:02:37,733
丘比是著名魔法少女片《魔法少女小圆》里面
Kyubey is from the famous magical-girl anime Puella Magi Madoka Magica —

1216
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:39,566
这也是我最熟悉的片子
also the work I know best —

1217
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,900
里面那个看上去人畜无害
that seemingly harmless creature

1218
01:02:42,900 --> 01:02:48,900
但其实 你也不能说邪恶吧 但总之是个反派生物
that — you can't quite call it evil, but it's the antagonist all the same.

1219
01:02:49,100 --> 01:02:56,800
它就是在通过签订契约来榨取地球人的精神能量
It extracts humans' psychic energy through signing contracts.

1220
01:02:56,866 --> 01:02:58,300
所以其实从这个角度来看
So from that angle,

1221
01:02:58,300 --> 01:03:03,133
你甚至可以说新奥特曼的设定和《魔法少女小圆》是有一定互文之处的
you could even say Shin Ultraman's premise is somewhat intertextual with Madoka Magica.

1222
01:03:03,166 --> 01:03:06,600
因为他们本质上都是地球人
Because at bottom, both involve humans—

1223
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:10,700
地球文明具有一种特殊的能力或者资源
Earth's civilization possessing some special ability or resource,

1224
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:15,100
而这种资源不完全为人类文明所知
one not fully known to humanity itself,

1225
01:03:15,166 --> 01:03:18,133
但是外星文明却在觊觎着这种资源
yet coveted by alien civilizations,

1226
01:03:18,133 --> 01:03:21,866
试图用它来满足自己的文明
who try to use it to serve their own civilization,

1227
01:03:21,866 --> 01:03:25,600
或者说宇宙中更大的一个利益
or some larger interest across the cosmos.

1228
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:28,866
但是他们试图给人类提供的契约
But the contract they offer humanity,

1229
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:31,533
乍一看对人类是有利的
at first glance, seems to benefit humans—

1230
01:03:31,533 --> 01:03:35,666
但实际上这背后隐藏着巨大的陷阱
but in fact conceals an enormous trap behind it.

1231
01:03:36,500 --> 01:03:39,800
这个点我觉得其实是非常有意思的
This point, I think, is genuinely fascinating.

1232
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,700
因为它其实是在说人类文明
Because it's really speaking about human civilization —

1233
01:03:42,966 --> 01:03:45,266
我们目前的这样一个当下的社会形态
our present-day social order,

1234
01:03:45,266 --> 01:03:48,666
这个电影又对这种社会形态一定程度上提出了一定的批判
and the film also, to some degree, levels a critique at that social order.

1235
01:03:48,900 --> 01:03:53,266
我不知道你是否能够认同 或者说理解我现在在说的东西
I'm not sure if you can agree with, or even follow, what I'm getting at here.

1236
01:03:53,500 --> 01:03:54,766
大概理解 大概理解
Roughly, roughly.

1237
01:03:55,466 --> 01:03:58,333
因为如果我们去把外星文明
Because if we take these alien civilizations—

1238
01:03:58,333 --> 01:04:00,666
包括我特别喜欢的那个桥段是
including my favorite bit,

1239
01:04:00,666 --> 01:04:03,966
我觉得当然很多 估计你们奥特曼粉丝看完也会会心一笑的
which many of you Ultraman fans will get a real kick out of, catching the nod to the original—

1240
01:04:03,966 --> 01:04:06,700
就是那个什么梅菲拉斯星人
it's the alien Mefilas.

1241
01:04:06,700 --> 01:04:09,100
他的那个彬彬有礼的状态
His polished, courteous manner,

1242
01:04:09,166 --> 01:04:13,766
以及试图去和人类达成一个合约
and his attempt to strike a contract with humanity.

1243
01:04:13,866 --> 01:04:17,733
那梅菲拉斯星人其实是 我的理解里
Now, Mefilas — the way I understand it —

1244
01:04:17,733 --> 01:04:20,066
其实应该是一个非常浮士德的名字
is a deeply Faustian name.

1245
01:04:20,066 --> 01:04:25,533
它应该是基于歌德的《浮士德》里面那个恶魔
It's likely based on the demon in Goethe's Faust —

1246
01:04:25,533 --> 01:04:30,200
梅菲斯托费勒斯 这个名字的一个改版
a variation on the name Mephistopheles.

1247
01:04:30,333 --> 01:04:32,800
那同样的《魔法少女小圆》里面
Likewise, in Madoka Magica,

1248
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,400
整个故事框架也可以一定程度上
the whole story framework can, to a degree,

1249
01:04:36,466 --> 01:04:40,100
被理解为对浮士德和恶魔签订契约
be read as an homage to Faust's pact with the devil,

1250
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:42,966
然后带来后果的这样的一个致敬
and the consequences that follow.

1251
01:04:43,566 --> 01:04:49,266
但同时签订契约似乎又是不可避免的一个重要的部分
But at the same time, signing the contract seems to be an unavoidable, essential part.

1252
01:04:49,466 --> 01:04:50,500
我刚才说
As I said earlier,

1253
01:04:50,866 --> 01:04:52,100
在新哥斯拉里面
in Shin Godzilla,

1254
01:04:52,100 --> 01:04:57,566
我们看到了一个有能力者小团体的互相抱团
we saw a small group of capable people banding together.

1255
01:04:57,566 --> 01:05:01,566
那这个在刚才我谈到的丘比杯子那个部分
And in that Kyubey-cup bit I mentioned earlier—

1256
01:05:01,900 --> 01:05:05,566
奥特曼最终需要人类来自己为自己的问题负责嘛
Ultraman ultimately needs humans to take responsibility for their own problems.

1257
01:05:05,566 --> 01:05:08,600
而所谓人类并不是全体人类
And "humanity" here doesn't mean all of humanity —

1258
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:13,500
因为它花了可能几分钟的一个长镜头段落来展示
because it spends a several-minute sequence showing that—

1259
01:05:13,666 --> 01:05:15,933
政府高层决定什么都不做的时候
when the top brass decides to do nothing,

1260
01:05:15,933 --> 01:05:20,200
在那个毁灭兵器已经在空中漂浮着、肉眼可见的时候
with the doomsday weapon already hovering visibly in the sky,

1261
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:24,133
人类的文明还是只能去平静地重复着自己的这样一个生活
human civilization can only calmly go on repeating its everyday life.

1262
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,866
但是当奥特曼给到一个线索之后
But once Ultraman offers a clue,

1263
01:05:27,866 --> 01:05:31,100
有能力的小团体就会开始行动起来
the small group of capable people springs into action,

1264
01:05:31,100 --> 01:05:34,300
然后开始去试图解决自己这个问题
and starts trying to solve the problem themselves.

1265
01:05:34,300 --> 01:05:37,733
所以说这个什么东西能够解决问题
So, as to what can actually solve the problem—

1266
01:05:37,733 --> 01:05:41,200
庵野秀明相信的这个能够运转的机制
the mechanism Anno believes actually works—

1267
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:43,466
本质上我觉得这几部影片中是有一些共通之处的
at its core, I think these films share something in common.

1268
01:05:43,466 --> 01:05:45,400
就是它是独特的
It's distinctive,

1269
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:48,800
但是它又不是真正的单打独斗的
yet it isn't truly a lone-wolf effort—

1270
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:52,733
像这个《零零年代的想象力》里面批判的一样
It's not like the sekai-kei that Uno Tsunehiro critiques in The Imagination of the Zero Years,

1271
01:05:52,733 --> 01:05:55,300
这个所谓世界系的这种完全
that so-called sekai-kei that completely—

1272
01:05:55,300 --> 01:06:00,700
脱离了从个体直接到了世界宇宙尺度的情感
leaping straight from the individual to a world-or-cosmic scale of feeling.

1273
01:06:00,700 --> 01:06:01,600
我觉得不是这样的
I don't think it's like that.

1274
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,933
他还是有一些在运作的社会结构在里面的
There are still functioning social structures within it.

1275
01:06:04,933 --> 01:06:09,000
只不过庵野秀明主观上对这些大的社会结构是不喜欢的
It's just that Anno, subjectively, dislikes these large social structures.

1276
01:06:09,333 --> 01:06:10,800
这个是我的一个感受
That's my impression.

1277
01:06:10,966 --> 01:06:11,766
嗯
I see.

1278
01:06:11,933 --> 01:06:16,800
其实新假面骑士 我觉得对于我刚才说的这个主题
In Shin Kamen Rider, I think that theme I just described

1279
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,333
是有一定的削弱的
is somewhat weakened.

1280
01:06:19,333 --> 01:06:22,966
但是它又更多地强调了这个肉体性、身体感
But it puts more emphasis on the problem of the body.

1281
01:06:22,966 --> 01:06:24,500
当然一定程度上像你说了
To a degree, as you noted,

1282
01:06:24,500 --> 01:06:28,866
这是假面骑士原作里面就有的这样一个部分
this is something already present in the original Kamen Rider.

1283
01:06:28,866 --> 01:06:33,266
他作为一个被改造之人的悲哀和一定程度上的迷茫
the sorrow and confusion of someone turned into a cyborg.

1284
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:39,300
但是为什么庵野秀明会要求在剧本的最后写出说
But why would Anno insist on writing, at the end of the script,

1285
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:41,333
这是一场难看的战斗
"this is an ugly fight"?

1286
01:06:41,333 --> 01:06:44,400
这个思路我觉得是能够理解的
That thinking, I find understandable.

1287
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:46,700
因为他在告诉你
Because he's telling you:

1288
01:06:46,700 --> 01:06:48,700
无论你多么地拥有力量
no matter how much power you hold,

1289
01:06:48,700 --> 01:06:50,133
无论你多么高高在上
no matter how high above you stand,

1290
01:06:50,666 --> 01:06:55,400
但是其实你有非常人性的那种痛苦
you still carry a very human pain,

1291
01:06:55,400 --> 01:07:00,400
你有非常难看的、丑陋的、人本身的
an ugly, unsightly, fundamentally human—

1292
01:07:00,766 --> 01:07:04,266
痛苦 但是正是这个丑陋的、痛苦的东西
pain — and it's precisely this ugly, painful thing

1293
01:07:04,333 --> 01:07:07,300
最终可能也成为你的力量
that may, in the end, become your strength.

1294
01:07:07,300 --> 01:07:10,200
这个思想我觉得是在这里的
That idea, I think, is present in the film.

1295
01:07:10,300 --> 01:07:13,133
为什么庵野秀明会有这样的一个思想脉络
As for why Anno has this line of thinking,

1296
01:07:13,366 --> 01:07:16,200
我会想到的就是我发给你那个纪录片
what comes to mind is that documentary I sent you.

1297
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:19,866
在那个新EVA最后一个剧场版在拍摄的过程
During the making of the final Rebuild of Evangelion film,

1298
01:07:19,866 --> 01:07:21,500
他的一个自我的表达就是
one of his personal remarks was this:

1299
01:07:21,666 --> 01:07:23,700
他的父亲 庵野秀明的父亲
his father — Anno's father —

1300
01:07:23,700 --> 01:07:29,333
应该是在庵野秀明还小的时候 还是刚出生的时候
back when Anno was still a small child, or perhaps just born,

1301
01:07:29,533 --> 01:07:32,866
就应该是有一个事故 然后造成了终身残疾嘛
had an accident that left him permanently disabled.

1302
01:07:32,966 --> 01:07:35,400
庵野秀明就认为说
And Anno came to think—

1303
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:36,700
他形成了一种感觉
he developed a feeling

1304
01:07:36,700 --> 01:07:42,000
是人体或者说人本身的完整 是一种奇怪的东西
that the wholeness of the human body — of a person — is a strange thing.

1305
01:07:42,300 --> 01:07:48,000
一定是有一些不完美、有一些异样 才是更正常的一种运转模式
Some imperfection, some deviation, is actually the more normal way of functioning.

1306
01:07:48,066 --> 01:07:51,700
那这个想法我觉得本身是非常有意思的
That idea, I think, is genuinely fascinating in itself.

1307
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:54,733
因为其实我们的社会当中
Because in our society,

1308
01:07:54,733 --> 01:07:58,900
你如果想要要求一个完美 这个东西是很难存在的
if you demand perfection, that's something that barely exists.

1309
01:07:58,900 --> 01:08:02,066
很多东西其实都是有异质性的
Most things, in fact, carry heterogeneity,

1310
01:08:02,066 --> 01:08:07,333
但是这些异质性并没有真正否定整个系统本身的一个运转
but this heterogeneity doesn't truly negate the functioning of the system itself.

1311
01:08:07,666 --> 01:08:09,533
庵野秀明就好像是一个
Anno comes across as someone who's like:

1312
01:08:09,700 --> 01:08:11,400
我虽然不喜欢社会
"I don't like society,

1313
01:08:11,533 --> 01:08:13,800
但是我知道社会这个东西很重要
but I know it matters,

1314
01:08:13,866 --> 01:08:16,466
所以我试图去和社会和解
so I'll try to make peace with it.

1315
01:08:16,466 --> 01:08:17,666
我理解了
I've come to understand it,

1316
01:08:17,700 --> 01:08:21,800
尊重了 认识了这些东西的美好之处
to respect it, to see what's good in it.

1317
01:08:22,666 --> 01:08:23,933
思想上我是明白的
Intellectually, I get it.

1318
01:08:23,933 --> 01:08:25,500
但是如果你问我喜欢和不喜欢
But if you ask me whether I actually like it —

1319
01:08:25,500 --> 01:08:27,200
我还是觉得好像不太喜欢
I still don't, not really."

1320
01:08:27,300 --> 01:08:28,366
这个是我眼中的
That, to me, is what

1321
01:08:28,366 --> 01:08:30,466
庵野秀明传达出的东西
Anno is really telling us.

1322
01:08:31,533 --> 01:08:34,266
哈哈哈 虽然最后这个
Haha — well, that last part—

1323
01:08:34,266 --> 01:08:35,566
看笑了听笑了
Now you've got me laughing hearing it back.

1324
01:08:35,566 --> 01:08:36,800
没有没有没有
No no no—

1325
01:08:36,933 --> 01:08:40,600
虽然最后一个并不是单纯对庵野秀明的一个评价
Although that last point isn't simply an assessment of Anno,

1326
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:46,000
但是对庵野秀明的一个思想性 我觉得整体对这期节目来说是一个升华
as a read on Anno's ideas, I feel it elevates this whole episode.

1327
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:47,166
好吧因为
Well, because—

1328
01:08:47,966 --> 01:08:49,533
我确实怎么说
how do I put it,

1329
01:08:49,533 --> 01:08:50,333
在某种程度上
to some extent,

1330
01:08:50,333 --> 01:08:52,200
我并没有考虑得太多这方面
I hadn't thought about this side much.

1331
01:08:52,466 --> 01:08:55,466
好吧 但是大白现在说的这些东西 我还是很认同的
But what Dabai is saying now, I really do agree with.

1332
01:08:55,666 --> 01:08:56,300
就怎么说呢
How to say it—

1333
01:08:56,300 --> 01:09:01,900
庵野秀明一直给人的感受 就是他是一个很孤独的人
Anno has always given off this sense that he's a very lonely person.

1334
01:09:02,100 --> 01:09:03,100
就各种意义上
In every sense —

1335
01:09:03,100 --> 01:09:07,600
他的精神上 或者说他在工作上 他一直是一个很孤独的人
spiritually, or in his work, he's always been a lonely man.

1336
01:09:07,733 --> 01:09:12,800
他自身就是一种很难和其他团体去融合的
He's simply someone who struggles to blend into any group.

1337
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,200
和大家一起和谐共事的这样的一种性格
the sort of temperament that works harmoniously alongside others.

1338
01:09:16,866 --> 01:09:20,300
所以他自己对于这种社会的一种体验
So his own experience of society,

1339
01:09:20,566 --> 01:09:23,366
我觉得就是一种很简单的无意识的
I think, in a simple, unconscious way—

1340
01:09:23,366 --> 01:09:25,200
也许他有意识 也许他无意识地
consciously, perhaps, or unconsciously—

1341
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:28,566
就投射到他自己的惯有的作品之中
gets projected into the works he habitually makes.

1342
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,900
反而吸引到了一些在生活之中、在工作之中
And that in turn draws in people who, in life or at work,

1343
01:09:33,266 --> 01:09:39,600
对其有一些共鸣的观众 能理解到、能欣赏到
resonate with it — viewers who can grasp and appreciate

1344
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,100
就是庵野秀明自己独特的一种哲学
Anno's own distinctive philosophy.

1345
01:09:42,166 --> 01:09:44,200
那可能这方面我不太能get到
Maybe that's a part I can't quite get,

1346
01:09:44,366 --> 01:09:46,200
但是我认识一些朋友
but I know some friends

1347
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:51,300
确实也都是无意中多少都有说过
who've mentioned, offhandedly, more than once—

1348
01:09:51,300 --> 01:09:55,133
就是说庵野秀明在作品中展现到的那种孤独
that the loneliness Anno shows in his works,

1349
01:09:55,333 --> 01:09:59,133
展现到的那种角色无可奈何的境遇
the helpless plight of his characters,

1350
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:03,766
在他们自己的人生之中 也都是有类似的经历的
mirror things they've been through in their own lives.

1351
01:10:03,933 --> 01:10:06,066
所以看到庵野秀明的这些作品
So when they watch Anno's works,

1352
01:10:06,366 --> 01:10:09,900
他能感受到 原来还有这样的开解方式
they feel: so there's a way to make peace with it after all,

1353
01:10:10,333 --> 01:10:11,766
原来不只有我是这样
and I'm not the only one like this.

1354
01:10:11,900 --> 01:10:12,333
嗯
Mm.

1355
01:10:12,333 --> 01:10:15,066
所以说我还是维持我一开始那观点吧
So I'll stick with my original view:

1356
01:10:15,066 --> 01:10:18,400
他的作品多多少少还是缺少了一些积极向上的东西
his works are still, more or less, short on anything uplifting.

1357
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:22,566
或者说他想表现的积极向上的东西 本身就和他的性格一样
Or rather, the uplift he does try to convey is, like his own character,

1358
01:10:22,566 --> 01:10:24,966
就是稍微有一些拧巴
a little conflicted.

1359
01:10:25,066 --> 01:10:26,500
但不能说没有对吧
but you can't say it's absent, right?

1360
01:10:27,333 --> 01:10:28,333
有些残缺
A bit broken,

1361
01:10:28,333 --> 01:10:30,700
对 还是那种残缺的
Right, still that kind of incompleteness.

1362
01:10:30,700 --> 01:10:33,766
最终他还是积极向上地去面对的
In the end, he still faces it in an upward-striving way.

1363
01:10:33,766 --> 01:10:36,400
只不过说我不是一开始就
It's just — not that I faced it from the start,

1364
01:10:37,100 --> 01:10:38,333
主动地去面对
not actively at first,

1365
01:10:38,333 --> 01:10:41,100
而是我意识到了我需要去面对
but rather I realized I needed to face it,

1366
01:10:41,100 --> 01:10:42,266
所以我去面对
so I did.

1367
01:10:43,333 --> 01:10:51,700
所以说观众老爷们到底是否像大白一样 能和庵野秀明有所共鸣
So, do you, the audience, resonate with Anno the way Dabai does,

1368
01:10:51,700 --> 01:10:55,100
或者说像我一样略微极端一点
or, like me, take a slightly more extreme stance—

1369
01:10:55,100 --> 01:10:59,900
对庵野秀明本身这种角色塑造方式并不太认同的观众
viewers who don't quite agree with Anno's way of writing characters?

1370
01:10:59,900 --> 01:11:01,133
我相信应该也有吧
I'm sure there are some.

1371
01:11:01,133 --> 01:11:03,100
一半一半 可能是一半一半吧
Half and half, maybe fifty-fifty.

1372
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:04,066
我不知道
I don't know.

1373
01:11:04,166 --> 01:11:08,200
欢迎观众老爷们在评论区多多讲述一下自己的想法
We welcome you all to share your thoughts in the comments,

1374
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:10,400
和大家多多交流一下
and chat with everyone. So—

1375
01:11:11,100 --> 01:11:13,200
收个尾 收个尾吧
let's wrap up.

1376
01:11:13,266 --> 01:11:15,800
其实我觉得像刚才你说的
Actually, like you said a moment ago,

1377
01:11:15,933 --> 01:11:20,000
我们刚才两个人其实带着两种不同的看法
the two of us came in with two different readings,

1378
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:21,200
不同的立场
different positions,

1379
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:22,733
我们进行了一些碰撞
and we clashed a bit.

1380
01:11:22,733 --> 01:11:25,800
最后还是其实一定程度上能理解
But in the end, we could still understand each other, to a degree—

1381
01:11:26,266 --> 01:11:27,500
对方在说什么
what the other was saying,

1382
01:11:27,500 --> 01:11:30,100
但还是保留着自己的看法
while still holding on to our own views.

1383
01:11:30,466 --> 01:11:32,300
我觉得这个也挺好
I think that's a good thing.

1384
01:11:32,300 --> 01:11:34,933
因为确实庵野秀明监督
Because Director Anno,

1385
01:11:35,066 --> 01:11:37,133
他的作品无论怎么样
whatever you make of his works,

1386
01:11:37,133 --> 01:11:43,166
他在特摄史上、动画史上 都会留下属于自己的一笔吧
will leave his own mark on both tokusatsu and animation history.

1387
01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:46,466
很难说去绕开他的一个作品
It's hard to sidestep his work,

1388
01:11:46,466 --> 01:11:48,666
特别是从动画研究的一个角度
especially from the angle of animation studies,

1389
01:11:48,666 --> 01:11:55,100
以及从媒介文化的角度去理解日本
and from the angle of media culture — understanding Japan,

1390
01:11:55,100 --> 01:11:58,666
或者说从日本的角度去理解媒介文化本身
or from Japan's angle, understanding media culture itself,

1391
01:11:58,766 --> 01:12:02,166
可能他都是非常重要的一个例子
he may be a very important example.

1392
01:12:02,266 --> 01:12:03,066
那
So—

1393
01:12:03,766 --> 01:12:07,533
无论这个作品本身带给我们怎么样好与不好的观感
Whatever impression the works leave us with, good or bad —

1394
01:12:07,533 --> 01:12:13,266
特别是我们今天讨论的几个特摄 给人带来的普遍是不好的观感
especially the tokusatsu films we discussed today, which generally leave a poor one —

1395
01:12:13,266 --> 01:12:16,266
当然我们说的你也可以不同意
Of course, you're free to disagree with us,

1396
01:12:16,666 --> 01:12:20,366
看作品嘛 毕竟是一个主观的事情
How you interpret a work is, after all, a subjective thing.

1397
01:12:20,366 --> 01:12:23,733
对对 10086个人的心中有10089个"阿普雷特"
Right — 10,086 people have 10,089 "Hamphlets" in their hearts.

1398
01:12:23,733 --> 01:12:25,100
对吧还是那句话
Right? Same old line.

1399
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:26,400
哎呦哎呦
Whoa, whoa—

1400
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,066
我们不能每期都拿这句话收尾吧
We can't end every episode with this line, can we?

1401
01:12:29,066 --> 01:12:30,733
哈哈哈
Haha.

1402
01:12:31,066 --> 01:12:31,900
可以可以可以
Sure, sure, sure.

1403
01:12:31,900 --> 01:12:34,900
刚才互相稍微严肃了一点
We got a little serious with each other just now,

1404
01:12:34,900 --> 01:12:36,566
最后开心一点的收尾好吧
so let's end on a happier note, alright?

1405
01:12:37,566 --> 01:12:39,933
庵野秀明的作品其实还是有很多
Anno's works actually have plenty of—

1406
01:12:39,933 --> 01:12:42,500
这个值得讨论和挖掘的东西的
things worth discussing and digging into.

1407
01:12:42,500 --> 01:12:44,533
那当然我和97也是
And of course, 97 and I,

1408
01:12:44,533 --> 01:12:47,900
从两个不同的角度 各种意义上的不同角度吧
come at it from two different angles — in every sense.

1409
01:12:47,900 --> 01:12:52,900
动画的、特摄的 文化思想上的和电影工业上的
animation and tokusatsu, the cultural-intellectual and the film-industry sides.

1410
01:12:53,700 --> 01:12:56,466
也可以听一听大家的看法
We'd also love to hear what you all think.

1411
01:12:56,466 --> 01:13:04,866
我觉得我们都期待着 加深对庵野秀明的理解吧
I think we're all looking forward to deepening our understanding of Anno.

1412
01:13:06,733 --> 01:13:11,500
是的 我们什么时候能达成对彼此的和解呢
Yes — when will we reach reconciliation with each other?

1413
01:13:11,866 --> 01:13:16,400
观众老爷们何时能达成与自己的和解呢
And when will you, the audience, reach reconciliation with yourselves?

1414
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:20,066
不知道 好吧 不知道啊
I don't know, honestly, I don't.

1415
01:13:20,066 --> 01:13:24,266
但是我们也许都有那么一天能够和解吧
But maybe, one day, we all reach that reconciliation.

1416
01:13:24,266 --> 01:13:27,600
希望吧 这也是为什么我觉得新EVA的结局 可能很多人不喜欢
I hope so. It's also why the ending of the final Rebuild of Evangelion, which many may dislike,

1417
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,066
但我还觉得是不错的一个点
I still think has a real merit:

1418
01:13:30,466 --> 01:13:35,400
最终可能你会发现 很多东西早就已经找到了和解的途径和钥匙
in the end, you may find many things had long since found their path and key to reconciliation,

1419
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,666
但是你可能还需要一个途径去认识到它是吧
but you may still need a way to come to recognize it, right?

1420
01:13:38,666 --> 01:13:41,400
第一次去卢浮宫 感觉也没什么大不了是吧
Your first time at the Louvre, it can feel like no big deal, right?

1421
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:44,666
你早就遇到了你的蒙娜丽莎了是不是
You'd already met your own Mona Lisa, hadn't you?

1422
01:13:45,766 --> 01:13:50,066
那就欢迎观众老爷们多多留言、多多评价
So we welcome you all to leave comments and share your thoughts.

1423
01:13:50,333 --> 01:13:52,866
有什么想对我们说的 可以留在评论区
Anything you'd like to say to us, drop it in the comments.

1424
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,766
本期节目就到此结束
That's it for this episode.

1425
01:13:55,966 --> 01:13:56,766
拜拜
Bye-bye.

1426
01:13:56,866 --> 01:13:59,400
好我们两个去撸猫了拜拜
Alright, we're off to go pet the cats. Bye!